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Is there still a rule to stop poor jumpers from running in the National? Can’t recall it ever being used.
Knowhere may not fall that often (yet) but his record is still poor. There are not many races, even on conventional courses, where he’s put in a good round of jumping. In the National he’s failed 3 times to get around, unseating twice. When it comes to the National these days you still need to jump well, better than is needed on park courses. Horses do not have to “fall” to be a danger to other horses / jockeys, unseating rider is just as bad. Remember Paddy’s return, a blinkered runner who took out a lot of runners at the Canal Turn while loose. Unable to see what was on his left, as he trotted across the take off side. Like Paddy’s Return, Knowhere has been blinkered on his last two starts, worn cheek pieces in the two before that.
Knowhere’s jumping has got progressively worse through an error strewn career. So what chance this year? He’s even got an X against his rating for a “Poor Jumper” in Timeform! Of course it is “possible” (highly unlikely) he’ll get around this time, but the risk is surely NOT worth taking.Below is Knowhere’s record over fences with Racing Post comments about his jumping. Every run over fences is included.
This season
16th Mar, Fell 7th
6th Mar, blundered 5th, hit 10th, mistake 16th
30th Jan, blun 14th, 15th and 16th
1st Jan, hit 1st and 3rd and 13th
12th Dec, PU before 8th
14th Nov, blun 5th, PU before 3 out
24th Oct, Mistk 12th, hit lastLast season
4 Apr, blun 12th, PU before 25th
13 Mar, Never jumping with any fluency
29 Nov, (nothing about jumping)
26 Oct, (nothing about jumping)07/08
26 Apr, not fluent 9th, mistake 20th
5 Apr, blun & UR 25th
14 Mar, Not fluent 4th, blun 9th, hit 13th
26 Jan, hit 8th, not fluent 4 out
15 Dec, hit 12th, mistk 3 out
1 Dec, hit 13th
17 Nov, (nothing about jumping)
20 Oct, mistk 8th06/07
14 Apr, blun & UR 8th
14 Mar, blundered his way around
27 Jan, blun 1st, hit 4th
26 Dec, mistk last
9 Dec, Hit 6th and 13th, mistk 4 out, hit 2 out, not fluent last
18 Nov, mistk 4th, blun 3 out
11 Nov, Fell 8th
7 Oct, Jumped well
21 Sept, (nothing about jumping)
1st Jan, Not fluent.Knowhere’s fall at Cheltenham caused the death of Casey Jones, but this has nothing to do with my opinion of Knowhere’s participation in the Grand National. I posed the question on another thread before that run.
If the BHA are not going to stop Knowhere, then I can’t see them ever stopping any runner from running.
In my opinion Knowhere is a danger to himself, his jockey, other jockeys and their mounts.
Value Is EverythingSurely it should be up to the owner and trainer as to whether the horse runs in the National. I know a lot of people think that Knowhere has no chance of jumping round safely but that is an opinion!!
It smacks of nanny state to me to say what can or can’t run in a national because of its jumping ability or lack of it. I think some people are questioning its participation on the grounds of it taking another horses place!!
How many people moaned about horses like Cerium etc in the past??I am not a trainer or an owner but I would imagine the decision lies with those two and not us mere mortals!!
You sure you are not related to the owner of Knowhere "Ray Mo uld".
It is all to do with safety, nothing else.
Cerium has never been a poor jumper. Knowhere is.
It is NOT an OPINION about Knowhere. It is a FACT. Knowhere IS a POOR JUMPER. His record tells us that.
The question is whether being a poor jumper should stop him from running in the Grand National.
Value Is EverythingKnowhere boasts a fair record in the Grand National, GT.
2009 – Made it to the 25th before being PU despite seeming to hit every other fence in the Gold Cup.
2008 – Going quite well when losing his rider at 2nd Valentines, having jumped well to that point.
2007 – Unseated at the 7th.
So while his record at Aintree isn’t as safe as Amberleigh House, Knowhere obviously respects the big green fences. It should be noted that Irish Raptor is also clumsy on park courses but jumps Aintree as well as anything, so course record should be the most important factor imo.
Knowhere’s record (which has never been good) has got progressively worse. his three Aintree performances should be seen in that context. This year his jumping is worse than last year and so on. This year Knowhere’s record is awful.
I would not call any horse who has not got around in three attempts as "fair".
Value Is EverythingYou could say the same about Notre Pere’s form this year, Ginge.
Knowhere’s jumping isnt THAT bad
In reply to the wuestion regarding whether a poor jumper should be allowed to run in the National my reply would be the same!!
Its up to the owners!!
As long as the horse qualifies then it shouldn’t be an issue whether its a good or poor jumper.And no I am no relation to the owners of Knowhere
Surely if a horses jumping is that bad, it wouldn’t get a high enough rating to get into the National anyway?
Under those terms, I don’t think it’s down to the BHA to say whether a horse should or should not be allowed to run. That said, surely Knowhere’s connections would have the good sense not to take a massive risk. At Cheltenham, Casey Jones was the unlucky victim but it so easily could have been Knowhere himself.
EDIT: I haven’t just copied raymo there. I think we must have started typing at the same time!
"Knowhere"s still alive Ginge! Great jumpers like Ten plus,Monsieur le Cure and Alverton to name but a few are not!
As a staunch supporter of underdogs and in view of your recommendation Gingertipster, you’ve given me no option but to put all my Worldly possessions on Knowhere to win the National.
In fact I’m now so confident about its chances that I’ll even go so far as to say that if he doesn’t win by a distance I’ll run the length of Warren Hill in the nude at the crack of dawn.
KRed Marauder’s jumping was…. just God awful, yet he got given his chance on two occasions and hello? He won. Sure there are a few underlining factors that led to his win, but it’s looking like a similar National this year… Knowhere is one of my favorite horses so i’m naturally bias…
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You got some balls on you Ginger.
When I saw your thread I thought geez! that’s a bit out of order but when I got to this:-
"Knowhere’s fall at Cheltenham CTD of Casey Jones"
That raised a gulp I can tell you
One could just as easily blame Paul Carberry for running his horse’s head up Knowhere the dodgy jumper’s backside.
Not the done thing mate perhaps one should delete it
Of course Knowhere should be allowed to run. That is unless you want 60% of the field to be taken out with him.
His owner’s contribution to racing alone justify’s it.
He has entered the horse in many races knowing he can’t win. Most of which he has ran with distinction in. He’s taken on the likes of Denman, Kauto Star, Madison Du Berlais and had a list of really good chaser finish well behind him on several occassions.
If I woke up the day after the National and someone told me Knowhere had won it I wouldn’t be at all surprised. You should go back and look at some of the winners and what they did beforehand……Anglo if I remember right was 50/1 and had PUP form and Red Marauder was an awful jumper of park fences.
Knowehere ran a good 2nd recently, scared the life out of Exotic Dancer a few year ago and has won more than a few races. His form isn’t anywhere near bad enough to justify a post and an unfortunate accident doesn’t give anymore grounds to single him out, than 50 odd others that are entered.
Have a nice day mate and keep up the good work. Your posts never cease to amaze me.
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Surely if a horses jumping is that bad, it wouldn’t get a high enough rating to get into the National anyway?
Under those terms, I don’t think it’s down to the BHA to say whether a horse should or should not be allowed to run. That said, surely Knowhere’s connections would have the good sense not to take a massive risk. At Cheltenham, Casey Jones was the unlucky victim but it so easily could have been Knowhere himself.
EDIT: I haven’t just copied raymo there. I think we must have started typing at the same time!
How can they say a horse shouldn’t be allowed to run because it makes mistakes?
Sure a horse won yesterday and never touched a twig after jumping through every fence at Kempton the time before.
Hell lets stop Kauto Star from running in the Gold Cup too…
Surely if a horses jumping is that bad, it wouldn’t get a high enough rating to get into the National anyway?
Under those terms, I don’t think it’s down to the BHA to say whether a horse should or should not be allowed to run. That said, surely Knowhere’s connections would have the good sense not to take a massive risk. At Cheltenham, Casey Jones was the unlucky victim but it so easily could have been Knowhere himself.
How can they say a horse shouldn’t be allowed to run because it makes mistakes?
Hell lets stop Kauto Star from running in the Gold Cup too…
They can’t. Only the horses rating & his connections can. As it should be uf you ask me.
Its only departed with its rider on 4 occasions in 31 outings. Fair enough its been pulled up a few times also.
In the veterans at Newbury on its second last it justified his connections hopes of him going on to Aintree, because despite making a few mistakes the horse was able to keep going – stamina and toughness are obviously a bonus in the GN!
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