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I have no time for Trump, I’ve put him down for the underhand
Criminal that he is. Trump has one thing on his side, he’s
mad enough when he says if something doesn’t happen then “all
hell will break loose” such as Hamas not doing as he said. Ok,
they didn’t do it by 12.15 on Saturday, but they will do it.
Any threat by Trump, however unhinged, have to be taken seriously.Leaders of other countries are, and ought to be, scared of him.
The middle east would give, and have given the fingers to Biden,
nice man as on the face of it he appeared to be. Then Biden goes
and blots his copy book by pardoning his son, something he said he
would never do. He’s as bad (Trump aside) as the rest of the lying
ba**ards that rule any country.If Trump, which he will do, leaves the Ukraine to fend for themselves
or a mish mash of Europeans countries try to fill the vacuum the best
that will happen is that the war will continue with Russia
thousands more will die, and it will be as it is now. The Europeans
are saying the right things, but they definitely dont want to send
thousands of boots on the ground, nor do we have the money to do it
indefinitely apart from the fact that it brings WW3 into question.So the bottom line is, after Trump has his parley with Putin, he will
do the same with Zelensky. The “deal” that will be offered is that the
war will end with the Russians keeping the areas they intended keeping,
perhaps giving some areas back that they are not particularly interested
in. Zelensky won’t want to accept this but the Ukrainians don’t want to see
more of there young men dying. If anyone can see another solution, I’d love
to hear it, but I don’t think he (Zelensky) has any other choice and without
Biden handing out billions of dollars, they simply wont have the resources.
It’s amoral but it’s politics and Trump is holding the highest hand in the word.I feel desperately sorry for the Ukraine, my sis in law took in 2 Ukrainians
when she lived down south, such proud people. She managed to get them rehoused
before she decided to head back north to Fife. Trump should never have been made
President the first time and even less so the second time. But there’s no point
in just saying what we want happen it simply isn’t going to happen. The sooner
they all face up to that the better. It might just save a few hundred, or thousands
of young men, women and children being slaughtered.I agree. Ukraine is never going to win. I keep imagining being a mother of a young son in Ukraine knowing that, if the war continues indefinitely, he will be called up to fight. I’ve always likened Trump to a friend of mine who drove his car and rode his bike so erratically that he never had an accident, because other road users kept well away from him never knowing what he was going to do next. At the same time I only ever got in a car with him once: never again. We must strengthen our ties with Europe.
The front page of Private Eye sums up the situation.
Under the title “Ukraine Peace Plan Latest” is a picture of Trump talking to Zelensky.
Trump: Guess what the deal is?
Zelensky: I give in.
Trump: Correct.
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains
I've walked and I crawled on six crooked highwaysI agree with you HDLG, but what on earth is Zelensky thinking when he’s looking for
assistance from Trump and then states that Trump is “living in a disinformation space”
governed by Moscow. Is the man an idiot, anyone would know the type of reaction you would
get from Trump when he’s more or less saying Trump is in Russia’s pocket. Does he honestly
think by bad mouthing Trump of all people, that Trump was going to turn around and say”here
you go Volodymyr, here’s another $80,000,000,000 to keep the a war going that you’re never
going to win”.If I’m honest, my gut feeling is that I’ve never 100% felt comfortable with Zelensky (even less
so with Trump) he gives me the feeling that he enjoys being the world’s darling too much whilst
his country is getting destroyed and over 57,000 young Ukranians have to date been killed and a
quqrter of a million injured. When he must see what’s coming, or should, why has he never once
attempted to enter into peace talks with Putin. Even though it might feel like having a tete-a-tete
with the devil, you do it to try and see if they can come to some kind of agreement that might
save the lives of so many Ukrainians. He would certainly have been in a better position when he was
getting Billions from Biden and with the west throwing in a few million too. The chances of getting a
statue of him in the town square are deminishing week by week.So we think that Zelensky should give his £2 dinner money to Putin and he’ll be happy with that. He won’t come back the next day and ask for more?
Honestly Trump can’t see Putin’s a bully/dictator because he’s one himself.
tbh I think Zelensky has held back a hell of a lot, BigG. In the hope Trump will get a better deal for Ukraine. But untruth after untruth. There’s just so much bile any leader of any country should have to take. Especially when it is supposedly from someone going into “peace talks” on your behalf.
“Ukraine has to give 50% of its minerals over to the USA to pay for the war”.
Zelensky was willing to give some but not the sum Trump wanted. Ukraine will need money from those minerals to rebuild. Trump is not involved in trying to produce a lasting peace. Gone is the USA policeman. In comes the Trump protection racket.
“The war is Ukraine’s fault”.
“Ukraine should have done a deal with Putin to stop millions of people from being killed”.Yep, just as Pearl Harbour was the USA’s fault and they should have done a deal to stop millions being killed.
Who invaded who here?
…And it’s not millions anyway.“Ukraine has to give Russia the land it wants” or words to that effect.
“Ukraine will not be allowed in NATO”.
“NO American forces will be used to keep the peace”.All of those three things were possible negotiation tools in order to get a lasting peace. Or in the case of “NO American forces”, even if Trump had no intention of using American troops, it could have been used as leverage in order to get a better deal. What has Russia given in return for these things? Nothing. ie Trump has thrown away all of the little negotiating power both Zelensky and Europe had.
“Zelensky’s approval rating in Ukraine rating is just 4%”
“Zelensky should have had an election”.It is in the Ukranian constitution what happens to elections in war time. Zelensky has said there will be an election after the war is over. Just like Churchill had an election after WWII… And Zelensky’s approval rating is 57%, not 4%.
There is no point Zelensky keeping quiet anymore. Trump is giving away Zelensky’s country.
All Zelensky has done is to point out Trump is falling for Putin’s propaganda.“Zelensky is a dictator who’s in power without an election”.
It is Trump who refused to accept Biden won the 2020 election.
It is Trump who encouraged or at least sat back and watched his supporters storm the Capitol… And has since freed those who took part. .What Ukraine wants is not Peace now War later. This needs to be a lasting Peace.
All Putin wants is a weak Ukraine so as to go in again at a later date.
…And by Trump rewarding Putin for the invasion and saying a definite NO to Ukraine’s future NATO prospects… Means Putin will soon be after Russia’s old empire again.
What / who now is going to stop him moving into Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova and Poland?Trump’s appeasement to end this war is going to make future wars far more likely.
Value Is EverythingAlso, be clear that Putin wants Zelensky gone.
He wants a puppet in charge of Ukraine… Or even if not an absolute puppet, a leader in a position where he / she has to do whatever Putin wants.Everything Trump has said so far could have come out of the mouth of Putin.
…My mind goes back to when Putin and Trump met before.As I said in the early pages of this thread: It is as if Putin has something over Trump that is making him say these things.
Value Is EverythingIs NATO – as we know it – over?
tbh I have great sympathy with the USA constantly complaining of the lack of Europe’s spending on defence.
NATO has worked well in the past because of its main principle. If any NATO country is invaded, that country knows every other NATO country will come to its aid… And the fact every potential invader knows this makes it such a great deterrent. But the USA is the only superpower within NATO. So it is basically the only country with the capability of keeping another superpower from invading any other NATO country.
“America first, America first”.
If Trump can see any way where it is to his / America’s interests not to go to war, he won’t. Trump has great admiration for “strong leaders”. So much so that advisers in Trump’s first term said if a strong leader came up with something different… Trump would go with what that leader said instead of his own advisers.Look at how Trump criticises European countries and talks up our potential enemy… And (although not in NATO) found a reason to blame Zelensky. Trump is so unpredictable. You could say that Trump’s anti-European stance could (rightfully) mean Europe contributing more to their own defence…
But it also means every other NATO country is questioning whether the USA will really come to their aid if attacked… And even if Trump says “Yes I will”, he is so unpredictable. There must now be a massive doubt whether he’ll follow through if the worst came to the worst… And what’s more, potential enemies of Europe (Putin included) know this.
Value Is EverythingI thought Trump and Vance couldn’t fall any lower … I was wrong , it’s terrifying how these idiots are handling this
I watched the day unfold (Friday) and the Trump/Zelensky meeting. I’m no
fan of Trump, but what the hell did Zelensky think he was doing. He was
supposed to be representing his country and achieving three things, the
end of the war, the best deal he could get with regard to the sale
of the minerals and hopefully some kind of deal offering help from
the USA to maintain the peace.He might be a charismatic leader during war time, donning the uniform
style garb and mixing with the troops and being the darling of all, but
as far as a politician and negotiator goes, the guy doesn’t have a clue.
Everything he might have hoped for was gone in 10 minutes because of his
inept arguumentative manner towards Trump in the Whitehouse of all places.
You might hate Trump, I’d say with good reason, but if you are going into
the Whitehouse looking for help from Trump, you don’t get embroiled in a
bun fight with the President of the USA then storm off in his waiting car
with nothing achieved.Trump is a dangerous man, but Zelensky has more of less pushed Europe into
a very awkward situation. As Trump (apologies for siding with him again)
pointed out, Zelensky had the opportunity to hopefully bring about peace,
but his antics are more likely to bring about the 3rd World War if Europe
are forced to send in troops to Ukraine..I couldn’t be more disheartened.
I largely agree BigG
It seemed to me that Trump and Co. had a well-orchestrated plan to rile Zelenskyy and the latter rose to it hook, line and sinker. Starting with Trump’s rather snide comment on meeting him regarding his ‘relaxed casual’ attire – “doesn’t he look smart today” followed in similar vein by the stooge in the audience asking why he wasn’t wearing a suit. Then Vance’s perfectly timed intervention about propaganda and Zelenskyy’s supposed lack of thanks; after which the whole show degenerated into the slanging match the Trumpists were hoping for.
One can’t really blame Zelenskyy but a more experienced and hardened politician would have adopted the required thick skin and countered the spite with calm and collected diplomatic replies.
It also didn’t help that although Zelenskyy is a proficient English speaker, it is not his first language and he would have been wise to utilise an interpreter for such an important meeting: he seemed a little lost amidst the crossfire of invective.
The world gets more dangerous by the day. Forget the tinkering with superficial rises in defence spending from 2.3% to 2.5% and make rapid plans for a wartime economy: hefty tax rises and/or borrowing to pay for rearmament way beyond 2.5% of GDP. Ditto the other European nations.
Putin sleeps soundly and wakes with a smile on his face.
I am sure they will get back together soon.
Trump will want to get the $350 billion dollars back and more – a deal will be struck.
I think Drone is quite right that it was odd that Zelenskyy did not have an interpreter on hand. Zelenskyy also really should invest in suit and tie – I spotted Trump looking him up-and-down several times.
I think Starmer was lucky with Vance on Thursday – I thought he would have given him a harder grilling.
Did Zelensky storm out or was he ejected?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains
I've walked and I crawled on six crooked highwaysThe meeting was cut short by Trump and the press conference cancelled.
Zelensky was ordered to leave the White House.
Trump then wrote online: “Come back when you’re ready for peace”.
Agree with the criticism of Zelensky. He had a poor hand yesterday and he played it even worse.
I reckon the adulation he has received over the last three years has gone to his head a bit. Yesterday he was up against someone who doesn’t give a damn about him. I don’t think Zelensky fully understood that.
People with Ukraine flags in their social media profiles won’t like it but Ukraine is not going to win this war. How many more people do they want to be killed? There is going to have to be a negotiated peace and Putin is going to get something out of it. Realpolitik has to take priority over idealism.
As for Trump, unlike his first term he does not have one eye on trying to get re-elected. He doesn’t care less what his critics think of him. He knows he has the power and the money and they don’t.
Look at Starmer and his lackey Lammy. Both on record as being highly critical of Trump. Several of the Cabinet were opposed to his state visit in 2017. But now they are scurrying across the Atlantic, behaving like vassals paying homage at the court of a medieval king, pleading for preferential treatment and inviting him on another state visit. And he gave them nothing in return, other than a few patronising remarks. What an utter humiliation.
Are none of you asking what Putin has on Trump , I get it he wants his noble prize but Jesus the US voted with Russia and Korea on a UN resolution , who cares what Zelensky wears , Musk is strolling around the white house without a suit , Trump is using the war for US gain , he might not care if Russia take ground in Ukraine but Europe certainly does , Starmer may well have to take a Wilson like stance with the US , milk what we need but keep at arms length
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