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If (and it is a big IF) the French Derby is attracting a better horse, then isn’t the reason more likely to be Prize Money rather than distance?
Value Is EverythingSome interesting points made so far.
Before changing the Derby trip, I would run it 4-5 weeks later. Just making sure horses have the chance to gain some more experience and become more mature.
I would ban horses that aren’t two years old at the date of the race from running in such a 2yo race, same applies to the 3 year olds. We don’t need to rush horses and have them run at the age of one year and ten months for instance. They have their entire careers ahead of them, why hurry at such an early stage? Can’t see any advantages from contesting such events.
It has always seemed odd to me that the top flat race (by which I mean The Derby!) is for horses that aren’t fully mature.
I am sure the trend in racing towards precociousness, speed and not having to wait for things is reflective of trends in wider society.
I am quite sympathetic to the idea of running the Derby later in the year. After all, it was run on the 4th July last year, albeit in highly unusual circumstances.
I genuinely do recognise the logic behind reducing the distance – but there is more to life than logic.
The Derby is one of the most historically important sporting events in Britain. We should think long and hard before we start messing around with it. I do not believe in living in the past – but we should not be in total thrall to the here and now and the fashionable either.
Reducing the distance is a line in the sand for me. If in future a three year old colt wins a Group 1 at Epsom over 10 furlongs then that is all they have done. They will not have won the Derby, as they will not have faced the exact same test as some of the greats of the Turf have done.
If that is boring to some people here, then so be it.
Breeding wise 10f is possibly fashionable as it splits the mile and derby distance therefore opens up more opportunity’s and more room for error
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What is wrong with horses coming back in trip after they’ve won The Derby anyway?
Happens all over the World, why not Britain?Value Is EverythingLoads of excellent posts here( and the odd not so good).
Firstly moving the derby will reduce the field dramatically as we will know by July who will stay the 12f. I have an unbelievably simple solution but will upset the upper orders.
Swap royal ascot with Epsom dates. Make the king Edward a group one and all potential derby horses could run there before the derby and see if they are good enough to compete in the derby and stay the distance. Then onto Epsom for the derby. Japan would have won the derby a couple of years ago then the king George has the best older horses against a derby winner who will not need dropped in trip. Breeders can then refocus on winning the derby and of the horse doesn’t truly stay 12f no harm done. Seems the least disruption to solve the problem.12f to 10f and slippery slopes.
If the shortening of race distances and speed is the emphasis, then tomorrows ‘Betting Fodder’ 8 race card consisting of,
R1. 7f
R2. 7f
R3. 5f
R4. 6f
R5. 6f
R6. 6f
R7. 6f
R8. 6f
would be something to look forward to…….or perhaps not.Saturday is ultra exciting (up there with watching paint dry) adding some extended ‘staying’ distances for a mouthwatering 11 race card of,
R1. 5f
R2. 5f
R3. 5f
R4. 5f
R5. 4 1/2f
R6. 7f
R7. 1m
R8. 7f
R9. 7f
R10. 1m
R11. 1m10f is more of a marathon trip and the seasons longest race is an unbelievable 14f at the end of the season in December. Half of the dross betting on that particular marathon are asleep by the end of the race, such is their attention span.
mickeyjp,
You suggest moving the Derby will reduce the field dramatically, then suggest exactly doing that. Not to July admittedly but to the middle of June.
For many horses the King Edward is too close to The Derby anyway and I’ve always thought part of the charm of The Derby was not knowing whether certain horse’s would stay or not.
Personally I don’t think there’s a discussion to be had on the subject, sometimes these journalists have to be controversial in an attempt to justify their existence and pay the bills.I think a seven-page thread – consisting of a variety of voluntary contributions from forumites who, unlike journalists, are under no pressure to find things to write about – is ample evidence that there IS a discussion to be had, actually.
Few traditional racing fans WANT The Derby changed in trip, venue or date, but what I think this thread shows is that many recognise a Classic structure conceived centuries ago is struggling to retain legitimacy in a changed 21st century landscape.
The 2,000 Guineas is surely now the strongest Classic, the one which retains the most relevance to the world we are now in.
The commercial demand for a stallion prospect who was mature and precocious enough to deliver a Group 1-winning performance on the first Saturday in May at a mile as a 3yo is as strong, if not stronger than ever.
But The Derby is a quarter mile further than the modern global market now ideally seeks, as 1m2f, not 1m4f, is the modern global epicentre.
And the St Leger faces an even bigger struggle.
They might as well rename it the NH Sire Stakes.
I love The Derby and its history.
I don’t actually want to see it change in any way.
Ditto the St Leger, actually, the first Classic I ever attended (1978).
But the days of the quality Derby winner taking the Irish Derby>King George route trod by: The Minstrel, Troy, Shergar et al in my youth seem to be fading.
1m4f just isn’t “where it’s at” any more in the way it once was – many consider the Eclipse and International Stakes as bigger races than the King George nowadays and that was unthinkable 20 years ago when Galileo did The Derby/Irish Derby/King George treble.
This debate will rumble on.
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It was the clerk of the course from Epsom who highlighted the reduction in the field of the derby was moved. I’m more interested in having horses ready for the test of Epsom. Japan showed what a difference a couple of weeks can make. Fads come and go so maybe wealthy guys who love the derby and the leger might get involved. Who knows what the breeding set up will be in ten years time. Coolmore will be there but will the various Arab money still be there.
Be careful what you wish for. We could end up with no country having a point of difference in their racing.
It could just be we are going through a phase of average derby winners. Maybe some horse like point Lonsdale could be a top derby winner. It’s only 6 years since golden horn and we had sea the stars, Australia, Camelot and golden horn in a six year period.
I’ve a feeling Galileos band of broodmares could well produce a good few top 12f derby winners.But the days of the quality Derby winner taking the Irish Derby>King George route trod by: The Minstrel, Troy, Shergar et al in my youth seem to be fading.
So?
I don’t see why that is a bad thing.
Why shouldn’t Derby winners come back in trip?
Surely it is even more of a test than keeping at the same trip?
Horses coming back in trip happens all over the World, why not here?Value Is EverythingMy point is that, back in the day horses like Shergar stayed at 1m4f because there was no commercial pressure to prove themselves at shorter trips – 1m4f was then the most coveted race distance.
But a variety of factors – including globalisation – have pushed that down to 1m2f so, in order to optimise its stallion value, The Derby winner needs to come back to 1m2f and win a Group 1.
It’s a tacit admission The Derby is now two furlongs further than is considered ideal.
It would take a seismic shift back to stamina to alter this global trend.
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It is not that a 1m4f Derby winner puts a breeder / owner off in itself. Far from it. They actually love the thought of breeding a 1m4f Derby and / or a 1m4f Arc winner. 1m4f is still the pinnacle in that respect – at least in Europe. If asking any flat owner: If you could win just one race what would it be? The answer is still either The Derby or Arc.It is just that – as well as winning The Derby – Breeders / owners also want to see a Derby winner with enough speed to also be effective at 1m2f. Because – as they see it – a 1m4f to 2m horse (stallion) runs the risk of breeding one that needs 1m6f+.
Hence, nowadays owners want to come back in trip after winning The Derby.. And if that encourages them to run in races like the Eclipse and International instead of the same old 1m4f trip of Irish Derby and King George… then alls well and good as far as I am concerned.
Value Is EverythingIan Davies,
I’m not referring to a discussion on here, I’m referring to a discussion by the people who decide these things.
Plenty of subjects get discussed on here that will never come under the microscope of the powers that be. A 10 furlong Derby should be one of those. As should be moving it to another track or the time of the year it is run. Moving it from the first Wednesday in June was more than enough.
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