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Exactly DJ, he was, and what a terrible job he done.
When are coolmore pacemakers ever run like that? What ? Two coolmore horses in a race, less favoured one goes to the front, favoured one to the back, harsh pace on, front one fades, more favoured one comes with a late run and wins. Yeah youve got a point Aiden, coolmore never run their horses like that!!!!
So once again I have nothing upon which to base my assumpion, have I got to write a big speel about everything which I would generally expect everyone to know anyway, or can people ever accept that maybe there is more than their original perception of an event.
Quick answer tracky, alot of Sadler’s Wells sons from his earlier crops were disappointing at stud – In The Wings took a long while to get established and many others have switched into the NH sphere. ÂÂÂ
I don’t think anyone has really figured out how to breed to the untypical faster SW sons – Barathea is another example.  KofK is doing ok in Australasia now, he has had King’s Chapel (who was Horse of the Year, champion 3yo, champion sprinter, champion miler and a top rated older horse) as well as a few other group winners, so maybe they have the key.  Forgetting about treating them as a stallion son of SW and taking the horse on their own merits is probably the best tack.
Don’t know if Refuse To Bend will face the same problems – I can’t see him taking off instantly in the way that Montjeu and Galileo have, as, like with the others, it is difficult to change perceptions about what a SW son should be like and what mares would suit him. If he gets sent similar types to G & M’s mates, then yes, I think it will be difficult for him.  He covered 132 mares in his first season, with some nice mares (28 bt performers, a fair few already dams of group winners).  Big mix though – some group class sprinters, a couple of dams of mile classic winners, some very stout staying families.  Be very interesting to see which he works best with.
Bulwark:<br>Prepotence – http://www.chef-de-race.commain_menu.htm has lists of sires with the distance category in which they are most influential (feel free to ignore the stuff about dosage calculation, that’s only really for Americans).  I will be setting a test later…. :)
Sorry, I said this was a quick answer…..
one goes to the front, favoured one to the back, harsh pace on, front one fades, more favoured one comes with a late run and wins. Yeah youve got a point Aiden, coolmore never run their horses like that!!!!
Except Scorpion didnt race from the front or push the pace on!!! My point is that Coolmore pacemakers go off like hares from the front, even their quality pacemakers (Ace) go off hard from the front. Scorpion was not in there as a pacemaker….based on trainers comments before and after the race, given the ride he got (jockey could be seen trying to rein back the horse) etc etc. If he was a pacemaker he was ridden like no other Ballydoyle pacemaker I can think of.
For goodness sakes Bulwark…
Trinity College and HRE were also coupled in this year’s Jean-Luc – but I didn’t happen to spot Trinity College anywhere near the front!
Quite how you can continue to call Scorpion a pacemaker in last year’s Arc is beyond me.
There were in fact 2 pacemakers in the Arc – Windya and Voltmeter.
But perhaps they chose to sacrifice their Leger and GPDP winner, just to make sure there was definite pace…
Surely the point of a pacemaker is to MAKE the pace – not sit just behind it. So now you are calling Scorpion a crap pacemaker!!!
Is it not possible to have connections run more than one horse in a race and not have a pacemaker?
I do believe Godolphin had 2 runners in the QE2 last month. Librettist wasn’t a pacemaker, and shock horror, neither was Proclamation.
Scorpion in the Irish Derby wasn’t second string – he wasn’t a pacemaker. Or perhaps he was, I mean after all, he did race close to the pace, yet didn’t make the pace….I don’t know, you tell me if he was a pacemaker.
Perhaps Red Rock Canyon was a pacemaker in the RP Trophy the other day (Damn, shouldn’t have mentioned the race…you’ll go into a long explanation about how Authorized will beat Shergar’s record now…), or perhaps, and this is just a theory, Ballydoyle felt he actually had a chance of doing well in the race…
Stables don’t always have just one chance going into a race.
Ballydoyle this year – 3 runners in 2000 (none of whom were pacemakers), 2 runners in 1000 (none of whom were pacemakers), 4 runners in French 2000 (1 was a pacemaker), 2 in French 1000 (none of whom were pacemakers)…you get the picture?
And Scorpion has no turn of foot as has been said – he just keeps galloping. Why did you think there are front runners and horses that come from off the pace?
(Edited by jackane24 at 1:41 am on Oct. 26, 2006)
I personally think from watching the Arc that he was run as a pacemaker for HR
Think it all you like – but he wasn’t.
It is my belief that Ballydoyle pacemakers only appear to run off in front if no-one else takes up the pace because they are there to maintain a constant good pace, to send him running off ahead of what was already a good pace would serve no purpose whatsoever, also he had Kinane on board, as opposed to Heffernan, O’donaghue or McCabe. But he remained at the front and the way I saw is that he kept the pressure on at the front. In this years King George Cherry Mix battled with Hearts cry for the early lead, but then Lemaire (i think) accepted that he would be throwing away his chance by battling too much early and dropped back, as soon as he did Cherry mix eased off and dettori moved into a more prominent position. I believe that (even if he was not run way off in front) at least part of his reason for Scorpions participation was to maintain a solid gallop. That would make him a high class pacemaker, but Coolmore can tend to do this, I think its foolish to write this off completely.
To say that Scorpion’s strength is his travelling is true but to say he has no turn of foot is ridiculous IMO, ive seen him apply his turn of foot in the race against im spartacus and it certainly was impressive. I honestly reckon O’brien sent Scorpion and Oratorio to the wrong derbys last year and if he had done it the other way round we would have had two far better races. For those who doubt Scorpion I just hope he is in the form to prove you wrong in the Breeders Cup.
Wouldn’t you be concerned if he runs at the Breeders Cup, he’s only there to set the pace for Hurricane Run? After all it worked so well for them when he did it for the same horse in last year’s Arc.
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For God’s sake!<br> I would give I’m Spartacus a race.:o ÂÂÂ
also he had Kinane on board, as opposed to Heffernan, O’donaghue or McCabe
You mean the same Kinane who did pacemaking duties for Ballydoyle on Ace this year when he rode him like a typical Ballydoyle pacemaker?
I believe that (even if he was not run way off in front) at least part of his reason for Scorpions participation was to maintain a solid gallop.
I’ll say it again, as plainly as I can:
There was only one reason why Scorpion was in the race: to win it. This is a simple fact.
Besidies, if they had wanted a pacemaker in there they could have had any one of a dozen horses do the job and certainly would have used one who wasn’t a dual Group 1 and Classic winning son of their hottest new stallion!
Good point DJ, but with the amount that has went into prepping Scorpion for this race, which has been a long term target for him whilst hurricane has been race chasing in the champion, so you would like to hopew he’s got a good chance. Last year however Scorpion was just off the back of a leger win not long before his arc bid.
Who do you think they could have used last year that was anywhere near the sort of ability? Ace?
Im Spartacus may not be much now but last year, at the time he had to be at least listed class with that trainer (flood was it, cant remember?) whos yard went tits up! And Scorpions closing speed beside him was very impressive to the point that he made I.S. the rest of the field look to be standing still, just failing to get up on the line (from off the pace), thats when I got the disitinct impression that Scorpion was Group1 class and I had a little antepost bet on him for epsom at 33s before he was sent to the french version. He later proved that he was group1 class when second in the Irish Derby and then his two group1s. Scorpion may not have a lot of speed in his breeding but he has speed from his sheer class, I wouldnt touch him at 1m2 but hes definitely got plenty of speed for 1m4f.
but with the amount that has went into prepping Scorpion for this race, which has been a long term target for him whilst hurricane has been race chasing in the champion, so you would like to hopew he’s got a good chance.
While Scorpion certainly has a good chance in the Breeders Cup he has not been "aimed" at this race like you suggest for sometime. Horse was standing in his box much of the season and connections were at pains to squeeze in a race before hand.
Wouldnt it be correct to suggest that whilst not an obvious pacemaker, the connections thought that it might not be a bad idea to run a horse with a chance (of sorts) who would ensure that there was some pace?
You would think that would be a sensible view that might cross peoples minds clivex! But apparently not!
So any horse that makes the running or races just behind the pace is now a pacemaker? Motivator, Dubai Millennium, Dylan Thomas, Barbaro, Shawanda, Shergar, Attraction, Helissio, Reference Point, El Gran Senor…all pacemakers.
Bulwark…congratulations. You have taken my place in the space of 3 threads.
Sergeant Cecil is a non-stayer of 2miles and needs a slow pace to win, despite having won a Group 1 at 2m 4f and 2 Group 2s over a mile, and despite his racetimes of victories all being very good…
Scorpion was a pacemaker for Hurricane Run in the Arc, despite having finished less than a length behind him in the Irish Derby, and would have won had it not been for Fallon…
Eagle Mountain will run in the BC Juvenile 2 weeks after having a very tough race in DEFEAT on heavy ground…
Either Authorized or Teofilo WILL win the Derby without a shadow of doubt, despite there being the little matter of 8 months until then…
Have an off day please. I’ve said some crap in the past, but this is extraordinary.<br>
(Edited by jackane24 at 7:04 pm on Oct. 26, 2006)
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Quote: from clivex on 5:18 pm on Oct. 26, 2006[br]Wouldnt it be correct to suggest that whilst not an obvious pacemaker, the connections thought that it might not be a bad idea to run a horse with a chance (of sorts) who would ensure that there was some pace?
<br>
Even if the horse had "plenty of speed for 1m 4f"?<br>:biggrin:
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