Race Distances

[Seagull]

Prufrock

who cares about what horse ran at what time?
Overall you cannot dispute the facts!
You can make the times suit you as you feel fit.

We are dealing wih reality I hope and I have given you a few examples why the ground is so far more important than anything else.
You may have a vested interest in promoting speed figures and other such data butWhat happens in real time puts food on the table.

Form book told everyone that one horse would cope with the ground the form book suggested the other one would not

So in your mind Amnesty won then? (well done I expect you cleaned up!)

what about the other clear examples I have given you?

[Seagull]

Pru

PS The winner raced around the outside of the track and I very much doubt even you knew the exact distance so why guess?

But look at the race again and then tell me the winner raced over the same distance as Gary Moores horse!

You can fool people some of the time but you cant fool people all of the time. Abraham Lincoln said that.
I can be in your dreams If you can be in mine.
Bob Dylan said that!

Dream On
I said that

[robert99]

Seagull,

This thread is about correct race distances.
These are needed so that the correct "ground" or "going" can be more accurately calculated and then properly entered into the formbook to which you refer. The official going is often way out and I am sure you would not want to use that, as the "ground" issue remains so important.

[Prufrock]

Seagull,

I don’t see the point in arguing with you. I merely pointed out that your remark that Amnesty could run a furlong less than Come Bye and still be beaten flew in the face of the facts. It had nothing to do with whether I think Amnesty acts on heavy going or (bizarre one this) won yesterday’s race.

Thanks for bringing things back on track, robert99.

[Wallace]

Calculating the going from the times of races is important and as a result the actual race distance should not be a matter of guesswork.

A warning for anyone using Raceform Interactive or the work of Dave Bellingham in this area, as a lot of his figures are totally illogical. The going based on time at Carlisle on the 12th November was either Firm or Hard!!!

[Pompete]

A warning for anyone using Raceform Interactive or the work of Dave Bellingham in this area, as a lot of his figures are totally illogical. The going based on time at Carlisle on the 12th November was either Firm or Hard!!!

Wallace, I think to be fair to Bellingham your statement is slighty misleading. The Going Allowance or to more precise The Allowance for Race Conditions is based the on race time compared with a three year median.

It therefore follows that if on average the meetings for the previous three years were run on ground worse than Good – the going adjusted for in traditional standards – such adjustments although appearing illogical are perfectly sound. However, you are correct to highlight they should not be used to gauge the Going in the traditional sense.

[JimF]

It does seem a little bizarre, that in this day and age, the various levels of officialdom are often less than definitive about the actual distance of a horse race. Fingers crossed, that when we get to the London Olympics, there will be no suggestion of the 100m finals being run at a distance of ‘about 100m’

[robert99]

[It therefore follows that if on average the meetings for the previous three years were run on ground worse than Good – the going adjusted for in traditional standards – such adjustments although appearing illogical are perfectly sound. However, you are correct to highlight they should not be used to gauge the Going in the traditional sense.

P,

That is the point of this thread.
The median race times over the past 3 years have not necessarily been run over the same distance – the nominal race distance varies from meeting to meeting on many courses.

The Nick Mordin / Raceform method does not take account of going nor weight nor class in arriving at medians so they may have raced over all firm or all heavy – and over varying nominal distances – who knows? You get a random number out of it in the end but it has little logic to it.

Raceform themselves call these corrections "going corrections"

[quadrilla]

At this point I’d like to change my opening statement to :-

Does anyone care if say :- a 2 mile 4 furlong hurdle race is actually run over anything between a properly measured and marked distance anywhere between 1 yard and 5 miles 7 furlongs 219 yards ?

Backing two runners is the relentless pursuit of value. Backing each way is a shortcut to the poor house. Only 7% make a long term profit.

[Pompete]

Robert, I agree. I’m just pointing out Bellingham’s figures are adjusted to and not from Good going and are therefore sound within their own methodology. I offer no comment on how sound the methodology is but tend to agree without an accurate knowledge of race distances it may well be a case of garbage in, garbage out.

With reference to the G/a. My understanding is Raceform chose to continue to use it in its current form out of tradition when Bellingham took over SS. I believe he would have prefered to have expressed it as a Race Adjustment in Lenghts Per Mile.

[Wallace]

The Mordin/Bellingham/Raceform method is crude and useless way to produce speed figures and a going based on time. How a professional race analyst can have the going at Carlisle as Hard is beyond belief.

Getting back to the opening post, a lot of people do care about accurate race distances as doing any work based on the times for races where the distance is unknown is a waste of time.

[Cav]

Have a look at this

http://www.racingandsports.com.au/racing/pickmeet.asp

They could easily do something similar over here but while the tail wags the dog it will probably never happen.

[Artemis]

Accurate race distances are a major problem for those who compile speed figures for National Hunt racing, but not so much a problem for some of those who prepare the courses on which the races take place.

Often, the starting positions vary, the rails are moved about and fences are omitted for various reasons. On top of this, parts of the course are(correctly) covered, sanded, or watered according to prevailing conditions

A simple practical solution would be for the Racing Post, who are always represented at each race meeting to simply ask the man in charge i.e. the Clerek of the Course, to specify what changes have been made to the course and to publish these in the results and analysis section of the paper. The RP analysts will often mention such changes in their reports, but it needs to be done more formally.

I think that many professionals involved in jump racing and also many punters are not bothered very much by an attempt at exactness in reporting these changes to the course, so it will probably take a great deal of lobbying and cajoling before we see any action on this.

[Wallace]

Yes CR, that is the kind of thing we need to have over here. Ideally this information going and track changes should be compiled by an organisation independent from the racecourse management.

This would be an ideal project for a racing journalist to get her teeth into!!!

[robert99]

I got a comprehensive response (below) on this topic from BHA and some hopeful hints that things might improve.
Rail movements etc are agreed as necessary but all we really need are the changes in total distance relative to a standardised "accurate" distance.
Anybody want to propose their particular points for inclusion in a reply?
If other people don’t contact BHA etc then they do not know of the relevance of the issue.
Anybody going to take it up with Racing Post etc?

"Thanks for your email regarding race distances.

All Flat distance starts are measured to the nearest yard and professionally surveyed. However, where any flat race is run around a bend the word “aboutâ€

[quadrilla]

“……. measure at 2m 4f and 166yds and a distance measured at 2m 5f and 55yds would both be formally classified as “2m abt 5fâ€

Backing two runners is the relentless pursuit of value. Backing each way is a shortcut to the poor house. Only 7% make a long term profit.

[Charlie D]

I have to say there is no groundswell of opinion from racing’s participant bodies and general betting public that all NH distances should be officially described to the nearest yard and amended if necessary on a fixture by fixture basis.

There shouldn’t need to be a groundswell of opinion from anyone for a sporting body to provide this type of information

Amazing statement imo, but there again, maybe not

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