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If what Aidan says is true then RVW was in poor shape when he met STSs. His feet were hurting him and that had to affect the way he ran.Aidan as much as said so when he said he was out for three weeks after that race with sore feet.
There’s a potentially-overlooked point emerging from yesterday that I’m going to throw out there, presumably much to the disgust of Rip fans. How does it reflect on Sea The Stars that he travelled practically every bit as well as Delegator- who race-by-race is looking increasingly likely to be one of the leading contenders for the 2010 July Cup- through this year’s Guineas?
Friggo makes a very good point. People are saying that this horse and that horse will be the champion miler.But they seem to forget that STS won the Guineas and beat everything by at least 2 lengths with the exception of Delegator who made up into second place and he does not even stay the mile!So basically STS was too fast for them all over a mile! By a mile.Look where the 3rd in the Guineas finished yesterday in Ireland. Pathetic.
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So STS is a superstar miler because he beat a horse who doesn’t stay a mile.
Makes perfect sense to me?
Friggo makes a very good point. People are saying that this horse and that horse will be the champion miler.But they seem to forget that STS won the Guineas and beat everything by at least 2 lengths with the exception of Delegator who made up into second place and he does not even stay the mile!So basically STS was too fast for them all over a mile! By a mile.Look where the 3rd in the Guineas finished yesterday in Ireland. Pathetic.
I was actually nudging towards Sea The Stars being the best horse we’ve seen in a long time, rather than drawing collateral form lines from a race run 5 months ago, but whatever. (Edit: reet, it’s not the bare form I’m bigging him up on, it’s a more qualitative point about the way he shaped. I’m pretty sure you knew that anyway.)
As it happens, the only scenario in which I could entertain the idea of Sea The Stars losing to another horse currently in training, all other things being equal and extreme trips aside, would be if he faced Goldikova over 1m.
The fact aqlaam dropped away like he did and the fact rip was finding more going away at the end after being right up on that sustained pace is a testement to rvw.This performance may or may not look better in a few weeks after zacinto runs in champion stakes.I would punt it will.Time will tell.
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Friggo
STS may have travelled well in the Guineas but, despite all the hype, the form doesn’t add up to a row of beans.
Delegator doesn’t stay Im at the very top level, and has been beaten each of the 4 times he has tried.
The 3rd horses, Ghan Amhras has won nothing, nor got anywhere near his rating from that race, in any other race he has run in.
Both Rip Van Winkle (4th) and Mastercraftsman (5th) have proved, numerous times since, that they need to be up with a decent pace at 1m – which neither of them were in the Guineas – to be competitive at that level, and certainly ran below any of their subsequent form, much of it over further.
Evasive ( 6th – btn 3.5l ) also didn’t stay, and on his next attempt at the distance was beaten 3.5l further by Mastercraftsman than he had been in the Guineas. He still languishes on an OR of 114.
Just my opinion, but nothing in that form suggests that STS is, was, or ever will be, a superstar miler.STS has only beaten the horses eligible for the Guineas and the Derby. Since the second did not stay a mile in the Guineas and the rest did not stay in the Derby in effect STS has beaten nothing of worth.He is just the best of a bad lot.So lets just put out the lights and go to bed. Get up again on Sunday to watch the Ark and see what happens.Does that make more sense Reet?
I’m not going to argue the toss about the Guineas form, and never was doing so, really- you don’t need to go as far down as Evasive to know the bare form hasn’t borne out over the course of the season. The point was that Sea The Stars has seemingly proved that he possesses the speed to travel as well as a high-class performer who looks more and more likely to prove capable of cutting it as a sprinter in Delegator, underlining his superiority over the rest of his generation more than anything else- not least given his exploits over further since then. The fact that the Ballydoyle pair weren’t seen to best effect is acknowledged, though it’s perhaps worth pointing out that neither have travelled with the same fluency as Delegator in subsequent meetings. It could also be interpreted that Sea The Stars thus has the speed to prove fully effective at 1m, but that’s more speculative and I’m not fully convinced myself, to be honest.
People giving out about Sea The Stars….yet they call Shergar a great on his Derby Victory against the worst bunch of Derby horse’s until last year.
STS is a great…get over it
There seems to a train of thought among some of Sea The Stars’ detractors, which would seem to suggest that were he not to win Sunday’s Arc, his claim to greatness would more or less be nullified and void.
Nijinsky’s status as a "great" is still very much intact, even though he did not win the Arc.
It was Interesting to learn that Lester Piggott has rated Sea The Stars on a par with Nijinsky. High praise indeed.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
STS has only beaten the horses eligible for the Guineas and the Derby. Since the second did not stay a mile in the Guineas and the rest did not stay in the Derby in effect STS has beaten nothing of worth.He is just the best of a bad lot.So lets just put out the lights and go to bed. Get up again on Sunday to watch the Ark and see what happens.Does that make more sense Reet?
And if, in the event of a STS defeat, you’ll no doubt say "I told you so…."
Too late pal. He’s hit the hights already and nobody can take anything at all away from the horse, even if he were to trail in last, beaten out of sight
All these hair brained theories about how STS has practically fluked Group ones galore are beginning to piss me off, quite frankly.
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OTS
STS’s Guineas and Derby form is nothing special, and for fairly obvious reasons.
Lionise him all you wish, he still has his big test to come, and that’s what posterity will judge him on.OTS
STS’s Guineas and Derby form is nothing special, and for fairly obvious reasons.
Lionise him all you wish, he still has his big test to come, and that’s what posterity will judge him on.On all known form, Sunday’s big test should prove less formidable for Sea The Stars than it will for the others.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I’m not too sure how people can crab the Guineas form.
These are some of the subsequent winners to have come out of the race;
1st – Sea The Stars – 4 x Group 1
2nd- Delegator – Group 2
4th – Rip Van Winkle – 2 x Group 1
5th – Mastercraftsman – 2 x Group 1
8th – Monitor Closely – Group 2
9th – Finjaan – Group 2
10th – Oceans Minstrel – Listed
11th – Ouqba – Group 3
12th – Lord Shanakill – Group1
13th – Ashram – ListedI know they have won over assorted distances but on the face of it that looks pretty impressive.
Sea The Stars has trashed pretty much everything that’s been put infront of him. Cantered to victory in the Guineas, the Derby, breezed past Mastercraftsman in the final furlong of the Juddmonte, put up an astounding performance in the Irish Champion Stakes. Rip Van Winkle is the only horse to have given him a fright. I think all this crap about other horses running over the wrong trip is, well, crap! Mastercraftman and Rip Van Winkle are equally as effective over a mile and two as a mile imo, and Fame And Glory showed plenty of pace when he went by Mastercraftsman in the ICS. I don’t know how there could still be any doubters. The only thing that could beat him is a long hard season.
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Not sure his trainer would agree.
From the SL website:Oxx said: "I think Fame And Glory is the biggest danger on the form and will stay the mile and half well. We think our fellow will stay the distance well, also, but he has only won over it once.
"But that will be what they are thinking – that Fame And Glory could be more of a danger to him over a mile and a half.
"Our fellow has too much speed for him over a mile and a quarter. I suppose they’ll try and make it a fast pace again and test the stamina to the limit.
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