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Despite promises to protect Czechoslovakia in September 1939, the Germans were allowed to invade by the Allies
Allowed? What were they supposed to do about it? Logistically it would have been extremely difficult to have prevented Hitlers actions
Allowed? What were they supposed to do about it? Logistically it would have been extremely difficult to have prevented Hitlers actions
Not really Clivex, it would have been fairly straightforward for an Army the size of the French. Indeed, The western borders of germany were at this exect point almost defenceless.
One of Hitlers political masterstrokes.4. The German war machine couldn’t function without oil. The German’s used coal to oil technology. Who provided this technology?
A vast portion of its coal came from Sweden (hence Germanys occupatuion of Norway to protect its convoys heading south from Royal Navy intervention. Oil had intially been supplied by, I guess, Russia. Oil was a bit of a thorm in the side of Germany, and hence the main objective of Army group South during Barbarrossa, was to capture the oil fields of the Caucusus.Edited and incomplete original. I’m not sure always sure whether the dots appeared when I click on the tab. I must pay more attention.
Pompete it was not the aim that was insane, so much as the timing!
As for no significant opposition, who’s fault was that? How many times was the advice of his generals ignored?
Still no news of "scorched earth". My, but you admirers of Hitler’s intellect are struggling with that one.
I don’t get it with you lads. I’m making some abolutely fundamental points and you’re just skirting around them. And as for the crypto and not so crypto-fascist mania of our monied classes, you simply refuse to believe it was more than a small pocket in Oxford, because I don’t quote precise sources. So be it. You can lead a horse to water…. Never mind that it was respectable enough for the Duke of Windsor (and the Daily Mail, probably the most popular, national daily in the country) to publicly espouse. At least I haven’t heard he kept it as a dirty little secret.
two things
The duke of windsor and rothermere is not enough to stick the nazi tag on all the "monied classes". Thats two people….
The idea that sheer money drives people towards extreme right wing beliefs is crazy.
You are also seemingly not differentiaing between the libitarian free market right and the facist right. Theres a huge difference.
Are you going to pin this label on the (far more influencial Beaverbrook) for one?
The Daily Mail was certainly not the biggest paper at that time..surely
Pompete, I don’t believe I mentioned Hitler’s role in WWI, and I was aware of his iron cross.
Dave, re your #1, Bush senior’s father, Prescott Bush and other Americans bankrolled the Nazis in some degree, and in fact he was indicted for it and his business temporarily sequestrated. Personally, I suspect it has been a life-long source of great bitterness to Bush senior, and that he may even have inflicted "W" on the US as revenge, as a punishment. Though it’s arguable that Jeb would have been too intelligent for their purposes – kind of open to reason, occasionally. But that’s pure speculation, I admit. I’d be very surprised if some of our bankers were not involved also.
Your #2, Poland was not the whole reason. Far from it. It was merely the trigger, the last resort. Churchill and others recognised the imperial ambitions of Hitler, and they were not going to stop at Poland. Why didn’t we declare war on Russia. Read about the Battles of Kursk and Prokhorovka. Halifax didn’t even want to take on the Germans.
#3 There is something peculiarly vile, degraded and unnatural about the levels of depravity plumbed by far-right regimes. Did you ever read about the Russians or Chinese Communists setting Alsatian dogs on young children? Did you ever hear of the Russian or Chinese Communists having child pornography prostitution rings? Or young homeless children living rough being shot shot by vigilante police officers in the employ of shopkeepers protecting their wares?
Even after the Western-induced collapse of the Soviet Union, I read of children living rough, but never dying of starvation as they have ben in Argentina.
I read the other day that young Palestinians are now suffering from presumably significant malnutrition. That is too bad. I kow that there must be very many Jewish people – the patriarchs of our Christian civilsiation and its best values – all over the world, who will be outraged.
The collapse of the Soviet union was most definately largely self induced. It was a system which simply didnt work. End of
Perhaps you would like to address the "starving children" issue with some Ukranians?
And if people were starving on the streets before the welcome collapse of communism, do you really believe taht we were going to get to knopw about it?
As for the differing moral standards of respective genocides….i think I will leave that one alone
read the other day that young Palestinians are now suffering from presumably significant malnutrition. That is too bad. I kow that there must be very many Jewish people – the patriarchs of our Christian civilsiation and its best values – all over the world, who will be outraged.
yes. With Hamas who have made it absolutely necessary for Israel to tighten the borders
And with Egypt perhaps? Who have taken the same action
Yes, I do believe we would know about it. Our leaders thinking nothing of making up the most enormous lies to support neoliberalsim for one. Western propaganda is second to none. And so hypocritical. Tell me, Clivex, why did we let Pol Pot die in is bed?
People starved in the street in Stalin’s day (with his collective-farming "initiative"), and under German siege, but I wasn’t aware of them starving prior to their Western-induced collapse. You speak of genocide, but do you really think our propagandists would not have made hay, if they could have accused the Communists of the uniquely right-wing depravities I cited? You certainly make no mention of it, either.
That’s what I used to think about the Palestinian leaders, Hamas, etc. Until I read Chomsky book. You all read our Western propaganda and swallow it whole, without even realising it.
Incidentally, Dave, the sustainability of the economy of Nazi Germany depended wholly on conquest and enslavement. As the author of an article in the Guardian put, "The Triumph of the Book-keeping Will".
The West tried to collapse China in the same way as Russia, but their leaders were too shrewd. Read Naomi Klein’s book, The Shock Doctrine – Disaster Capitalism. Not that I have. But I’ve learnt thte gist of it. Human disasters make for the most wonderful commercial opportunities, don’t you know…
Any news of "scorched earth", folks?
Clive, a treaty is a treaty. The British promised that if Germany invaded Czechoslovakia, we would declare war in Germany. We didn’t keep our promise for some reason.
In 1704, the Duke of Marlborough force-marched a primarily English army from the channel to Austria in around eight days before defeating the French at Blenheim. This was with horses rather than planes. We were slower out of the traps in 1939.
On the question of who supported the Nazis, there are two main groups where his supporters came from .. Germany fought two wars during WW1, the first was on the Eastern Front which it won and the second was on the Western Front which it lost. Veterans from the Eastern Front were more likely to support a militaristic regime than one that appeased those that they had defeated.
Catholics also supported Hitler, whereas in the Protestant north he had virtually no support. By blaming the Jews for everthing that was wrong with Germany, he pulled a very clever stroke. The Catholics only officially forgave the Jews for killing Jesus in 2001 (I think).
That’s what I used to think about the Palestinian leaders, Hamas, etc. Until I read Chomsky book. You all read our Western propaganda and swallow it whole, without even realising it.
I will let the Hamas leadership speak for themselve
Sour faced Chomsky can go fck himself frankly
April 20, 2007
Acting Palestinian Legislative Council Speaker Sheikh Ahmad Bahr, From Hamas, In Friday Sermon in Sudan: U.S., Israel Will Be Annihilated; Oh Allah, Kill the Jews and Americans ‘To The Very Last One’
The following are excerpts from a sermon delivered by Ahmad Bahr, acting speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, from Hamas, which aired on Sudan TV on April 13, 2007.
"America Will Be Annihilated, While Islam Will Remain"
Ahmad Bahr: "’You will be victorious’ on the face of this planet. You are the masters of the world on the face of this planet. Yes, [the Koran says that] ‘you will be victorious,’ but only ‘if you are believers.’ Allah willing, ‘you will be victorious,’ while America and Israel will be annihilated, Allah willing. I guarantee you that the power of belief and faith is greater than the power of America and Israel. They are cowards, as is said in the Book of Allah: ‘You shall find them the people most eager to protect their lives.’ They are cowards, who are eager for life, while we are eager for death for the sake of Allah. That is why America’s nose was rubbed in the mud in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Somalia, and everywhere."
[…]
"America will be annihilated, while Islam will remain. The Muslims ‘will be victorious, if you are believers.’ Oh Muslims, I guarantee you that the power of Allah is greater than America, by whom many are blinded today. Some people are blinded by the power of America. We say to them that with the might of Allah, with the might of His Messenger, and with the power of Allah, we are stronger than America and Israel."
[…]
"I tell you that we will protect the enterprise of the resistance, because the Zionist enemy understands only the language of force. It does not recognize peace or the agreements. It does not recognize anything, and it understands only the language of force. Our jihad-fighting Palestinian people salutes its brother, Sudan." […]
"Oh Allah… Kill Them All, Down to the Very Last One"
"The Palestinian woman bids her son farewell, and says to him: ‘Son, go and don’t be a coward. Go, and fight the Jews.’ He bids her farewell and carries out a martyrdom operation. What did this Palestinian woman say when she was asked for her opinion, after the martyrdom of her son? She said: ‘My son is my own flesh and blood. I love my son, but my love for Allah and His Messenger is greater than my love for my son.’ Yes, this is the message of the Palestinian woman, who was over 70 years old – Fatima Al-Najjar. She was over 70 years old, but she blew herself up for the sake of Allah, bringing down many criminal Zionists."
[…]
"Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, vanquish the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one. Oh Allah, show them a day of darkness. Oh Allah, who sent down His Book, the mover of the clouds, who defeated the enemies of the Prophet – defeat the Jews and the Americans, and bring us victory over them."
Read Naomi Klein’s book, The Shock Doctrine – Disaster Capitalism. Not that I have.
Grimes, I merely asked a couple of questions, intrigued by your suggestions that Tony Blair was groomed by MI5 to kill our democracy and that Quentin Hogg stood in a by-election with the slogan, ‘A Vote for Hogg is a vote for Hitler’. You brought these two ‘facts’ up entirely unprompted and as I found them somewhat unlikely, I was interested to find out more.
In the absence of any answers, I can only conclude that these are not facts at all. If in order to make your argument, you are forced to make things up or repeat second-hand speculation, it can only detract from the strength of your arguments.
Rhetoric! Quite brilliant rhetoric, Clive. I’d be strapping on the beltful of explosives in a trice if I was an impressionable young man living in Somalia. That’s the intention.
Sometimes, though, the most memorable rhetoric is the most succinct.
"It became necessary to destroy the village in order to save it…" Unnamed American Major after the massacre of Ben Tre
"Rather than talk to Hanoi, we should bomb them back to the Stone Age" Air Force General Curtis Le May, 1968
"I would say that most people in our company didn’t consider the Vietnamese human". Major Calley after the massacre of civilians at My Lai, 1968
"The only good Indian is a dead Indian" first attributed to General Sheridan, 1869
"And that claim is by the right of our manifest destiny to overspread and to possess the whole of the continent which Providence has given us for the development of the great experiment of liberty and federated self-government entrusted to us." journalist John O Sullivan, 1845.
(The atrocities justified by Manifest Destiny makes even the most extreme aspect of Shari law look like a parlour game).
Oh…
"Stuff happens…" Rumsfeld. 2003
I won’t bore you further, Clive. Professor of Linguistics Noam Chomsky was the first to notice that when the US supported a regime, they were labelled as freedom fighters. When they didn’t, they were terrorists and communists.
If you can point to a US leader stating publically that he wants to exterminate certain races then you could have posted something worthwhile
Otherwise Max, "unnamed soldiers" and people from 150 years ago, are not directly relevant to the laughable left wing defence of the (and this is extraordinary when you consider that even Hitler barely pronounced this stuff before the holocaust) stated genocidal ambitions of their islamist friends
The post was in response to the claim by idiot Chomsky and others, that the Hamas leadership is nice and cuddly (and i suppose just a bit naughty at times with their desire to wipe out whole strands of society)
The left is seriously bankrupt isnt it? Is that the best you can do? Do you really believe that "stuff happens" is quite the same as a call for genocide?
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