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Frankly, I don’t really care what the general public know of Horse Racing. There are any number of areas of knowledge where you can point to the public and observe their ignorance of a topic that people who have an interest in that subject, would consider meat and drink.
When watching 15 to 1 on channel 4 recently my lack of knowledge of Argentinian composers was brutally exposed, along with the contestant who faced the question. Somewhere in the UK a classical music fan would have been shaking their head at the failure to identify such an obvious answer.
It seems somewhat arrogant to expect that more people should be au fait with the workings of a niche sport. There are a lot of Sports Quiz players I have seen who start to get a nose-bleed if the topic wanders beyond football and that is just the way it is when you try to match the "Sport Of Kings" with the sport that, when you enter "Sport" on Teletext, occupies the first 10 pages and you then have to scroll past Lacrosse and Curling to reach the Racing news.
The chances are in fairly recent times, that if you looked up Racing News on the BBC’s teletext service in early June of any given year, one of the Headlines would be the story of the Grand National winner.
The game of racing is there to be involved in, or not, as a punter depending on what you desire. Nobody is forced to bet in any sphere, particularly one you feel may be corrupt.
We get the message here, which is that the original poster can’t punt successfully and has to vent about it on this forum because it’s everybody else’s fault but his.
This is the story of the original frustrated and constipated punter, who can’t pass a betting office.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
mid-to-low grade all-weather hcaps were a far happier hunting ground, with their share of decent prices.
I would totally agree with this, on AW & turf.
I said once on here that racing is a farce of concealed information that depends on virtually all punters losing virtually all of the time. That is an indisputable fact
No it isn’t, it’s just your opinion. Racing depends on punters winning often enough to maintain an interest but losing overall.
No ****, Sherlock. How is that materially different to what I said?
They asked 100 members of the public to name Gold Cup winners (Pointless) and not one came up with 3 time winner Best Mate
Only 4 named Kauto Star and Denman was also pointless.Think that shows the wider public’s interest in racing. Although I’m sure if Cheltenham and racing was regularly on the BBC then Racing would be much more high profile as it was back in the 70s/80s
I’d watched that program of Celebrity Pointless too. They had to name any winner of the Cheltenham Gold Cup in the last 50 years, as well as 2 other sub subjects on football and Ice Hockey (if memory serves me well). The football one being the hardest to get a pointless answer to.
I tried to come up with 3 answers myself, my first was Jodami which would have won the money, but kick myself because I couldn’t remember Silver Buck, my first big winner, Bregawn who led in the Dickinson Famous Five, and I knew the was a 100/1 winner in that period, but struggled on that too. I even had trouble remembering Arkle.
Joe Public only came up with
Arkle, Burrough Hill Lad, Kauto Star, Synchronised and Bobs Worth and possibly Dessie (Desert Orchid).
So it’s not just Joe Public who struggled to get answers in just 100 seconds.
mid-to-low grade all-weather hcaps were a far happier hunting ground, with their share of decent prices.
I would totally agree with this, on AW & turf.
I said once on here that racing is a farce of concealed information that depends on virtually all punters losing virtually all of the time. That is an indisputable fact
No it isn’t, it’s just your opinion. Racing depends on punters winning often enough to maintain an interest but losing overall.
No [expletive], Sherlock. How is that materially different to what I said?
Well firstly, you’ve stated that "racing is a farce of concealed information" and referred to that as ‘an indisputable fact’. It isn’t, it’s an opinion. Blatantly, obviously, an opinion. NOT a fact.
You then say that ‘racing depends on virtually all punters losing virtually all of the time’. This is just wrong. If it were true, even the most inveterate gamblers would give the game up. All punters can tell you of extended winning runs, it’s statistically inevitable. My description of ‘punters winning often enough to maintain an interest but losing overall’ is much more accurate. Ask a bookmaker.
Mike
So if you agree Prof, why moan about big handicaps being ultra-competitive when it’s what the public/many punters want?
Look let’s be honest, we all know what’s happened here. Prof’s had a bet on the Paddy Power via some stats-based analysis and it’s got stuffed.
So he’s come on here to blow off again about how it’s all a plot and everyone hates racing blah, blah, blah..
Mike
I did not have a bet in the race. Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. I picked up a R/Post to look at the all-weather form. As I went through the first ten pages I reflected that the paper often has it arse about face – it comes on like a punters’ paper, but concentrates on ‘the big race’, which as I have said is more often than not a satchel-filler before it is anything else. Most punters I know take little interest in the ‘big’ races because they have been stung so many times more than they have won.
I noticed on one of the first pages of the Post that it had a large panel which said something like THE FORMULA FOR THE PADDY POWER GOLD CUP. I love this cr*p because it’s always wrong – I used to work at the Post so I’ve got a pretty good idea of how this panel came into being. I read what the panel had to say. I said: ‘This will be wrong’, and it was. That is why I mentioned stats.
Then I moved on to Sam T-Davies column. He seemed to like his rides but there again if you backed every horse that jockeys spoke about in the same manner, you would have ended up in Carey Street a long time ago. As it happened, he rode a 94/1 double because this is one of those odd years when Mr Nicholls’s early season horses are not overpraised, overhyped and overbet; one of those snow-in-July moments that racing excels at.
Then I came across Pricewise. Not worth the paper it was printed on, as per. Now, Pricewise is a turf snob. He said some time ago: ‘Leave the all-weather and low-grade crap alone’, but why would anyone leave alone something where value can be found relatively easily? He is supposed to be a punting masterbrain. And yet he goes diving into guesswork, bran-tub races where there is more concealed information than the Kremlin.
The paper is bookie friendly because of advertising. It, along with Channel 4 Racing, is toothless. McCririck was the last high profile racing journalist to openly say punters don’t stand a chance. Maybe that is why he was silenced. Clashed with the adverts a bit too much.
You say that I claim everything in racing is a big plot. Of course not. I said it was a farce of concealed information. Being a little punchy about criminality – as most racing defenders are (I suppose they have to be given the amount of newsprint about bent jockeys and connections and drugged horses that appears) -you read that as inference of criminal intention. I don’t mean it like that. I mean that there is a huge amount of concealed or unknowable information in many highly valuable races. I suppose some of it is plots ie horses laid out and cunningly campaigned, but also what is being trained in public, what is just having a day out, who’s pulling for another day, who isn’t well, which jockeys are still p*ssed or coked from last night etc. Add into that the fiendishly complicated form, the inside elite who profit from the small punter and the incredible greed of the bookies’ margins and the sane man must conclude that racing offers very little to the passing punter and therefore struggles to raise interest these days. How amusing you now compare the sport, once one of the most popular in the land, to crown green bowling!
When I go in betting shops I find a few old addicts watching the racing through addled eyes and everyone else punching the FOBTs.there is a huge amount of concealed or unknowable information in many highly valuable races. I suppose some of it is plots ie horses laid out and cunningly campaigned, but also what is being trained in public, what is just having a day out, who’s pulling for another day, who isn’t well, which jockeys are still p*ssed or coked from last night etc. Add into that the fiendishly complicated form, the inside elite who profit from the small punter and the incredible greed of the bookies’ margins
It’s not the sport for you Prof. You need to give it up. It seems to make you so unhappy.
Mike
No [expletive], Sherlock. How is that materially different to what I said?
Well firstly, you’ve stated that "racing is a farce of concealed information" and referred to that as ‘an indisputable fact’. It isn’t, it’s an opinion. Blatantly, obviously, an opinion. NOT a fact.You then say that ‘racing depends on virtually all punters losing virtually all of the time’. This is just wrong. If it were true, even the most inveterate gamblers would give the game up. All punters can tell you of extended winning runs, it’s statistically inevitable. My description of ‘punters winning often enough to maintain an interest but losing overall’ is much more accurate. Ask a bookmaker.
Mike
So, you are saying that the information needed to win at racing is all there in the public domain, transparent and published, each day? Nothing concealed in any way? More water with it, Betty!
If the bottom line is most punters lose overall – which virtually all do – you might as well say they lose virtually all the time. To split hairs and say that when they claw back money they have already lost is some kind of profit is a bit desperate. You either lose or win overall. I’ll get some badges done up: I’M WINNING BUT I’M LOSING. JOIN THE RACING FORUM! The fact that every aspect of the game is set up to make it difficult to get ahead explains why it is known as a mug’s game and has had an unsavoury reputation since god was a boy.
there is a huge amount of concealed or unknowable information in many highly valuable races. I suppose some of it is plots ie horses laid out and cunningly campaigned, but also what is being trained in public, what is just having a day out, who’s pulling for another day, who isn’t well, which jockeys are still p*ssed or coked from last night etc. Add into that the fiendishly complicated form, the inside elite who profit from the small punter and the incredible greed of the bookies’ margins
It’s not the sport for you Prof. You need to give it up. It seems to make you so unhappy.
Mike
Dear Mike, if that is all you can say to my thorough reply to your objections, I think it wise we don’t debate any more.
I knew the was a 100/1 winner in that period, but struggled on that too. quote]
Norton’s Coin in 1990. That’s the one I said along with War of Attrition and Looks Like Trouble.
Dear Mike, if that is all you can say to my thorough reply to your objections, I think it wise we don’t debate any more.
Well, I can’t offer you that luxury I’m afraid. I get debated on no end of topics on here and everyone else should expect that too. It’s sort of the point of a forum…
I think what bemuses myself (and others) is that you aim an endless fountain of vitriol at the sport; you see no fun, joy, excitement or happiness in it. Just look at your hundreds of posts – every one of them utterly negative about racing.
I’m just genuinely wondering out loud why you bother with the game? It only seems to make you deeply unhappy and very, very angry.
What pleasure do you get out of it? Tell us.
Mike
I knew the was a 100/1 winner in that period, but struggled on that too. quote]
Norton’s Coin in 1990. That’s the one I said along with War of Attrition and Looks Like Trouble.
Yes, and I should have backed that because it was in my 100 Jumpers to follow for that season. However I stupidly overlooked it.
Today’s pointless had a racing question and only 6 people surveyed heard of FRANKEL
I think the triple Grand National winner scored more.
You say that I claim everything in racing is a big plot. Of course not. I said it was a farce of concealed information.
Naturally, its concealed information. It’s all depends on how much you want to research your subject. Knowing more than your fellow punters is the means to winning. Also looking at the same information in a different light, which (for me ) is easier said than done.
These are what I pick up on when I’ve read Nick Mordin column in the Weekender!
Racing is centered on concealed information and disguised ability, Professor Trubshawe is right. Keeping it in the family is the name of the game, ensuring generous odds for connections. I’ve known jockeys, owners, tipsters and countless high stakes backers. They all admit, those outside the inner circle haven’t a chance. Bookmakers are happy that it’s all made very difficult for the average punter to win, they keep more in their satchels. There was a winner a day or two ago had been beaten more that 90 lengths in it’s last four races, bolted up at 20/1, this happens on a daily basis. No amount of study would have revealed that particular winner and many like it.
Dear Mike, if that is all you can say to my thorough reply to your objections, I think it wise we don’t debate any more.
Well, I can’t offer you that luxury I’m afraid. I get debated on no end of topics on here and everyone else should expect that too. It’s sort of the point of a forum…
I think what bemuses myself (and others) is that you aim an endless fountain of vitriol at the sport; you see no fun, joy, excitement or happiness in it. Just look at your hundreds of posts – every one of them utterly negative about racing.
I’m just genuinely wondering out loud why you bother with the game? It only seems to make you deeply unhappy and very, very angry.
What pleasure do you get out of it? Tell us.
Mike
Well, I am glad you have conceded, or appeared to, the points we were debating.
What do I like about it? I trained as a painter (fine art); the first thing I liked about racing was its beauty. It is the most aesthetically pleasing sport in the world. I like the whole impedimenta of it: the silks, the tracks, the turf, the names, etc. Arriving at, say, Brighton, when a sea-fret is in and you can’t even see the top of the radio mast at the end of the track and then the sun burns the mist off and the horses parade for the first race. It’s a great thing to see, and I never get tired of it.
Standing at the last fence at Sandown in the depths of winter; watching half a dozen splashes of colour moving through the winter landscape at Plumpton. Horses racing through evening sunlight at Bath or Epsom or Chester.
I still like pondering the form, the handicap charts, looking for that little edge in form study like for example spotting a horse that can use its Brighton hill strength to piss up at Kempton etc.
The satisfaction of sniffing out a value winner or place bet, and a sense of anticipation at the start of meetings I really enjoy (Ascot, Goodwood, Chester etc). I used to feel it about Cheltenham – I used to have the week off work for it! But it doesn’t really move me anymore. It has become a Sisyphean task, a true waste of time and money.
And yes, I like to win money. I freely admit I have been/am at times an embittered punter – I find it hard to believe that any normal human being who has a good set-to with the bookies isn’t driven slightly potty by the experience for reasons already mentioned, plus all the usual Law of Sod stuff.
My breakthrough in maintaining enjoyment was to stop, ahem, betting large. That is what sours everything. I like to mess about with small perms and small wagers, so that the fact it’s all a bit of a condoesn’t matter
… much. One just takes what one wants from it. However, my disputatious side, and the fact there is not one racing journalist who is prepared to go off piste about the sport’s many faults, means I will moan and take the pee because I can; I pay my subs to the sport and it bloody well needs pointing out again and again: we punters don’t stand a chance in the long term! And the jockeys/connections/trainers/bookies who we keep going one way and another don’t give two ****s.
Excellent post Prof.
I would disagree with your conclusion that punters ‘don’t stand a chance in the long term’. But it is a herculean task, one that I thought I was capable of, but realistically probably am not. But to get to the top of any profession is surely no less onerous? Why would we think joining the 0.1% (or whatever) of punters who win should be easy?
Many years ago, I managed betting shops and saw no end of punters do their money and blame that trainer, that jockey, that horse etc etc but never themselves. Then they’d be back the following day to get even more angry! I always thought this was ridiculous. Why put yourself through all that pain for what is a hobby?
I think the key to enjoyment of the betting side of the sport is to find one’s own equilibrium. If that’s £10k win singles, great. If it’s 10p Yankees, also great! The moment it starts to make you angry or upset, it’s time to walk.
Mike
What do I like about it? I trained as a painter (fine art); the first thing I liked about racing was its beauty. It is the most aesthetically pleasing sport in the world. I like the whole impedimenta of it: the silks, the tracks, the turf, the names, etc. Arriving at, say, Brighton, when a sea-fret is in and you can’t even see the top of the radio mast at the end of the track and then the sun burns the mist off and the horses parade for the first race. It’s a great thing to see, and I never get tired of it.
Standing at the last fence at Sandown in the depths of winter; watching half a dozen splashes of colour moving through the winter landscape at Plumpton. Horses racing through evening sunlight at Bath or Epsom or Chester.
I still like pondering the form, the handicap charts, looking for that little edge in form study like for example spotting a horse that can use its Brighton hill strength to piss up at Kempton etc.
The satisfaction of sniffing out a value winner or place bet, and a sense of anticipation at the start of meetings I really enjoy (Ascot, Goodwood, Chester etc). I used to feel it about Cheltenham – I used to have the week off work for it! But it doesn’t really move me anymore. It has become a Sisyphean task, a true waste of time and money.
And yes, I like to win money. I freely admit I have been/am at times an embittered punter – I find it hard to believe that any normal human being who has a good set-to with the bookies isn’t driven slightly potty by the experience for reasons already mentioned, plus all the usual Law of Sod stuff.
My breakthrough in maintaining enjoyment was to stop, ahem, betting large. That is what sours everything. I like to mess about with small perms and small wagers, so that the fact it’s all a bit of a condoesn’t matter
… much. One just takes what one wants from it. However, my disputatious side, and the fact there is not one racing journalist who is prepared to go off piste about the sport’s many faults, means I will moan and take the pee because I can; I pay my subs to the sport and it bloody well needs pointing out again and again:
we punters don’t stand a chance in the long term!
And the jockeys/connections/trainers/bookies who we keep going one way and another don’t give two ****s.
Excellent start and middle Prof, shame about the conclusion. You say
"we punters don’t stand a chance in the long term"!
But that’s not true is it? I am living proof you are wrong. How come I make a good profit purely by studying form (Timeform)? Backing horses which are imo "value", with absolutely no inside information what so ever.
My current Gingers Jumpers – Daily Lays And Plays thread on this forum shows consistent profits after many thousands of bets.
Three individual days racing this season
2011/2012 Season Profit +1552.85 points
2012/2013 Season Profit +4470.00 points
2013/2014 Season Profit +1192.48 points
Three season Profit +7215.33 points2014-2015 season so far: +104.25 points
Thread Total +7319.58 pointsNobody is denying some skulduggery goes on, same anywhere money is involved. But it is nowhere near the levels you and Woolfie claim. I’d rather bet on horse racing than anything else.
Punters can only make money investing long term in racehorses if they are willing to study form
and
are good at evaluating form in to chance/value. Although some will know their form book back to front and still won’t be able to evaluate form in to chance/value. Sadly it must be said, most punters don’t really understand what is required in "studying form".
A few might not need to study hard for short term profit; might be able to find something under-estimated by the markets that gives an edge for a while; allowing them to find value without seeking it out. However, the problem with this is it’s difficult to tell the difference between an inevitable losing run (that every profitable punter has from time to time and comes through)… and when the bookmakers/markets have cottoned on to the "edge" and shortened prices; so the edge is no longer profitable. When do you stop?
Thankfully, most losing punters still enjoy horse racing. It’s just a matter of paying for their enjoyment. Just as someone might pay for a pint in the pub for enjoyment. It is unfortunately a natural instinct for some punters to blame others or something else for their own failure to make a profit. That said, we should certainly all keep a look out and say when we think skulduggery has taken place.
Value Is Everything
Only 4 named Kauto Star and Denman was also pointless.
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