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Is there something now wrong with an 11yo racing over 3m?
Nope. Just wondering why this particular horse has taken 3 hard falls when he is normally a good jumper. I agree that it’s still within the realms of possibility that it’s just bad luck. But still wondering if there could be an age related cause – moe’s theory aka the cheesy Top Gun quote “mind writing cheques the body can’t cash” vs Joe’s concerns about a physical cause; or a simple non-age related cause eg loss of concentration or confidence.
I’ve had to have a chuckle in that a friend of mine sent me a message the other day saying that [and I assume this was reported at the time but I didn’t hear it] when CC won the bumper Ruby turned to Joe and said ‘what the **** was that, Joe’! I haven’t seen a replay of that race since but I do remember someone tipping him on here or talkinghorses at a huge price and I didn’t back him. He must have had some speed.
There is nothing wrong with racing an 11/12yo over 3m but when you having an 11/12yo running in races at championship pace and you can genuinely say there is a good chance this horse will fall today then yes it is wrong.
Any horse can fall at any time that’s racing regardless of age but every time i watch this horse run now at every single fence He jumps in the back of my mind I will be asking “is this the final fence he jumps” and that simply can’t be right.
I wouldn’t be surprised if in private paddy has said to Tizzard that Cue Card should be retired and Tizzard has not listened and that’s the real reason behind the jockey change.
I wouldn’t be surprised if in private paddy has said to Tizzard that Cue Card should be retired and Tizzard has not listened and that’s the real reason behind the jockey change’; I, too, was thinking that earlier. Have just watched his bumper onutube [don’t think I’ve seen it before because I didn’t have access to utube back then]; jeez; he was amazing!
Yes Cue Card is 11 going on 12; but Kauto Star won the King George as an 11 year old and it isn’t as if Cue Card is currently outclassed in Grade 1 races. Indeed, he was in with every chance of winning the Charlie Hall when coming down… And has come on a good deal for his reappearance in both 2015 and 2016. Should not discount him from calculations in both Betfair Chase and King George. 6/1 for the former looks very reasonable.
Basically a good jumper who occasionally makes a catastrophic error. There are thousands of worse jumpers than him. If Cue Card should be retired because of the danger, then National Hunt racing should be banned.
Value Is EverythingBut Kauto was a ‘freak of nature’ [in the nicest possible way] and, as John Francome always used to say about his jumping errors ‘he always found a leg’. Cue Card doesn’t. And his mistakes don’t seem to make any sense. They seem to be ‘rush of blood to the head’ things.
Can someone explain something to me. Do jockeys actually tell horses when to take off? I know it sounds a daft question, and I assume they are responsible for telling a horse to speed up or slow down, but they often talk about the jumping side of it as being something they don’t have any control over. I know they used to say that Simon Sherwood used to let Dessie just do his own thing, but do other horses have to get organised at jumps? And trainers seem to say that they only pop horses over jumps for a schooling session at the start of the season.
Proper horsey people will have a better answer, but here’s my ha’penny worth, it’s value is less than that…
Jockeys have a lot of control over the jumping because their body movements will often be interpreted as a sign by the horse to jump. My old riding coach used to talk about “forming the intention to….”, trained horses know that you want them to jump.
Obviously if you did nothing other than point the horse at a fence, it’ll probably jump it rather than just running straight into it. So it’s not like pressing a button, but a good rider gives the horse confidence and momentum into the fence.
You’ll often hear a jockey say “I asked for a long one at that fence”, meaning they passed on the signal to jump a stride earlier, risking a bold jump in preference to getting too close the fence. A good horse would respond to that signal. A bad horse would get confused and bungle it.
Some horses like Dessie are intelligent enough to get it more naturally, but I’m sure Simon Sherwood was passing on bodily signals even if it was subconscious. What he was probably experiencing there was total confidence in the horse, so he had to do less thinking and overt direction.
[Edit to add: you assume the jockey makes them slow down and speed up, but actually the argument is the same. You can pull on the reins all you like, if the horse decides to bolt, it’s gonna bolt. And as many new riders quickly learn, you can boot, kick and whip the poor nag, if it doesn’t want to go for you, it’ll plant its hooves. So it’s the same thing: you pass on signals and a good horse will respond, a bad horse will ignore. Conversely, a bad rider will sent mixed and confusing signals. Even an excellent rider may be having a problem with confidence, and a thoroughbred can pick up on those signals. I’m not commenting on Cue Card or Brennan here, just generally].
Moe, some horses need organising and urged to pick up at the point the jockey prefers. Often it just doesn’t work that way and it just depends what stride they find themselves on as they approach. When they’re confident some way out (Brennan does this a lot), you’ll see them ‘count the horse in’ by crouching slightly in the saddle and urging with knees and body . . . One . . . Two …three, and then a kick to rise. But that sort of streamlined rhythmical approach is seldom seen more than three or four times in a race.
There’ll be others like Dessie who much prefer to be left alone and are confident enough to pick their takeoff point every time.
What was the point of running him over 3 miles in testing ground anyway?
He looked okay before the 5th last, but no way he had the stamina to fight out a finish with Bristol de Mai or Blaklion.
He also looked below par in this years’ Betfair Bowl, cause he should never lose to Tea For Two in a Grade 1 race.
The horse is at least a stone below his best and if connections need the prize-money so badly, then why not go for the Big One in April?So, what happens when [as often seems to be the case] a jockey has never ridden a particular horse before? Or, is that why a lot of top owners employ one jockey for their horses so they can school them/get to know them etc. Maybe Cue Card is a horse that needs organising at his fences? Can’t imagine what it’s like though, riding a horse at a fence at that speed and knowing it might just not take off [especially as I can’t even sit on a horse without falling off; #whiteknightsyndrome]. I don’t think it’s the money aspect with Cue Card. I read that he’s won two grade one races each season over the past three years, so, even in decline he’s still head and shoulders above a lot of other horses. I just hope he wins his next race and they retire him on the spot [still won’t be watching it, though!].
But Kauto was a ‘freak of nature’ [in the nicest possible way] and, as John Francome always used to say about his jumping errors ‘he always found a leg’. Cue Card doesn’t. And his mistakes don’t seem to make any sense. They seem to be ‘rush of blood to the head’ things.
Yes Moehat, Kauto Star was a better jumper than Cue Card. But the point is Cue Card put up two performances of better quality in his 10 to 11 year old season than Kauto Star did in his 10 to 11 year old season…
At the age of 10 Kauto Star didn’t have to be anywhere near his best to win a poor quality JN Wine on reappearance. Then finished a poor 19 lengths 3rd in the King George before beaten 11 lengths in the Gold Cup. Following those poor performances with an even worse one, at the age of 11 pulled up in the 2012 Punchestown Gold Cup. We got the same “XXXXXXXX should be retired” as we’re getting with Cue Card now. Kauto Star came back the following year to win a fifth King George at his beloved Kempton just a few days before turning 12.
In contrast to Kato Star, Cue Card put up two top class performances in his 10 to 11 year old season. After reappearance Cue Card ran away with the Betfair Chase at the age of 10. Then came a disappointing 2nd in the King George before another easy win as an 11 year old in the Ascot Chase.
It’s too early to retire Cue Card. Running a fair race and with a chance of winning the Charlie Hall when coming down. Wouldn’t be surprising if he were to bounce back and win another Betfair Chase at his beloved Haydock just a month or so before turning 12.
Value Is EverythingI do agree about not retiring him [as someone who wanted Kauto/Sprinter/Denman etc retired before they all made astounding comebacks!]. It’s difficult for trainers/connections when their horses become ‘national treasures’. Glad I’m not doing their job! Looking at Cue Cards bumper [wow] made me wonder what actually happened to the majority of horses from that race; ditto looking at any of my old racecards. Doubt if a lot of them have had the fantastic time CC has had over the past 8 or so years.
I do agree about not retiring him [as someone who wanted Kauto/Sprinter/Denman etc retired before they all made astounding comebacks!]. It’s difficult for trainers/connections when their horses become ‘national treasures’. Glad I’m not doing their job! Looking at Cue Cards bumper [wow] made me wonder what actually happened to the majority of horses from that race; ditto looking at any of my old racecards. Doubt if a lot of them have had the fantastic time CC has had over the past 8 or so years.
Remember that Champion Bumper well, Moehat. I backed Cue Card ante-post for the Supreme Hurdle immediately afterwards @ 25/1. Started 7/4 fav and finished out of the first three.
Also backed him to win the double in 2013, both Betfair Chase and King George @ 40/1. Taking 12/1 for Silviaco Conti to do the same… Cue Card won the first leg and turned for home cruising at Kempton before Silviniaco got the better of him. Cue Card did the double in 2015 without me taking the price.
Love Cue Card but have seldom got him right.
Value Is EverythingGT, I’d say Kauto made more jumping errors than Cue Card does, and by quite some margin.
As to Moe’s ‘finding a leg’, that’s impossible in the falls Cue Card’s been taking. Finding a leg was exactly what Kauto did a number of times – hitting the top of the fence and over-balancing leaving him sprawling and trying to get a leg out to find his balance.
It can’t be stressed enough imo that CC is barely taking off and has no chance of getting over the fence to get the opportunity to find a leg. He is crashing into fences at chest height in these falls. In fifty years I cannot recall a horse who did the same catastrophic thing three times and yet had zero falls otherwise. It just does not happen.
I see no reason why Cue Card can’t win the Betfair Chase just 12 months on from his last win in the race. Even in his prime CC would often belt a fence so I can’t use his jumping as an excuse to retire him.
I completely agree Ginger, if some on here had had their way we would never have had those wonderfully emotional wins for Kauto in the Betfair and King George. Unless CC puts in a couple of poor efforts rather than failing to get round he should keep going for the rest of this season.
Betfair, King George, Ascot Chase, Ryanair and the Betfair Bowl. Won’t win them all but we’ll have a lot of fun cheering him on.
It can’t be stressed enough imo that CC is barely taking off and has no chance of getting over the fence to get the opportunity to find a leg. He is crashing into fences at chest height in these falls. In fifty years I cannot recall a horse who did the same catastrophic thing three times and yet had zero falls otherwise. It just does not happen.
Yes, of course Cue Card will fall when making these catastrophic errors, Joe. But he does not make these errors in every race. When not making a catastrophic error Cue Card jumps well and has a good chance of winning. Therefore he should continue racing.
Value Is Everything
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