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Oaks 2023

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  • #1650006
    LD73
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    • Total Posts 4139

    Folly to draw any conclusions in comparing fully developed older horses to a still developing 3 yr old filly in June based on race times and sectionals.

    For instance, comparing both horses winning times in the Musidora (both on officially good ground) shows that Soul Sister’s overall time was 0.75s faster and her final 3F were 3.53s faster. Every horse in Soul Sister’s race ran the last 3F faster than Emily did in hers…..so do we conclude that at that respective stages of their 3 yr old careers that Soul Sister is better?

    It may well end up being that Emily is simply a better horse than Soul Sister but she potentially has even more improvement to come through her 3 year old career and possibly more from 3 to 4 just as Emily has clearly shown herself.

    #1650007
    Avatar photoGingertipster
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    • Total Posts 34704

    First, second and seventh furlongs of the Oaks the only ones faster than Corry Cup.

    But you would expect the Corry Cup to be run quite a bit faster than the Oaks because…

    Three year olds at the beginning of June would be getting quite a bit of weight from older fillies if running in the same race. However, Emily Upjohn carried 8 st 13 lbs in the Corry Cup. The 3 year olds actually carried 3 lbs more at 9 st 2 lbs.
    Three year old fillies would also be getting a sex allowance as well as age; yet the 4yo+ Corry Cup colts carried the same weight as the 3 year old Oaks fillies.

    That said, Emily Upjohn and Westover are currently quite a bit better horses than Soul Sister and Savethelastdance.

    Value Is Everything
    #1650011
    LD73
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    • Total Posts 4139

    Those weights carried in those two respective races when compared are just so strange especially when you consider in the Eclipse 4yr old Colts/Geldings carry 9st 9lbs – 4 yr old fillies carry 9st 6lbs whilst 3 yr old fillies carry 8st 10lbs

    #1650016
    FinalFurlong91
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    • Total Posts 6658

    Looking at the sectionals caernarfon has to be put in the tracker

    She covered furlongs 8 to 10 faster than soul sister before fading badly

    She runs over 10f next time she has to be of interest

    Given connections you may get a good price as well

    #1650022
    Avatar photoGingertipster
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    • Total Posts 34704

    Connections said afterwards they’ll go for the Daiane with Caernarfon.

    Value Is Everything
    #1650023
    Avatar photoGingertipster
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    • Total Posts 34704

    Did we see a St Leger filly in Savethelastdance?

    Value Is Everything
    #1650026
    FinalFurlong91
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    • Total Posts 6658

    She will be worth an e/w bet if they do go to the Diane

    And yes I’d say savethelastdance would relish a step up, especially on decent ground

    #1650067
    Avatar photoTriptych
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    • Total Posts 18727

    I”ll definitely be on Caernarfon wherever she runs a solid EW bet and more to come but she’ll be single figures now. One to look forward to this season.
    So impressive how the 3 leaders pulled clear of the field.
    I really enjoyed that race, apart from my Running Lion kicking her stall open and getting loose. :wacko: she’s back to a more appropriate distance next race so hoping she’ll win in France. :good:
    Jac

    Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...
    #1650070
    Avatar photoBigG
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    • Total Posts 14580

    Bloody Bet365 must have had an inkling, they did a special
    on their site just before the off….. Savethelastdance 6/4.
    I thought, I can’t let that go. Wish I had been on Paddy Power’s
    site :wacko:

    #1650076
    FinalFurlong91
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    • Total Posts 6658

    Always a red flag when they do a boost like that

    They do it on selections the traders believe are way too short and try to suck people in

    Best to back it then lay off the stake on the exchange so you can’t lose either way

    #1650093
    TheTinMan87
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    • Total Posts 1411

    I think Rowlands has said on twitter the first 4F for the Oaks was too fast but they got into the straight about the same time, Emily Upjohn and Westover’s 3-2F split were especially fast against historical standards.

    Weight for age is 15lbs at this point of June over 12F so it is a good point about the 18lb swing :good: that would account for 12 of the lengths which would at least have Soul Sister finishing 3rd in the Coro Cup on crude times. Given the context of what Rowlands said about the splits Emily Upjohn and Westover put in late and the faster than ideal first 4f in the Oaks it does more respectable for Soul Sister et al.

    FWIW historical times
    Hukum was around 8.5L quicker than Tuesday
    Pyledriver around 2.5L quicker than Snowfall
    Defoe 13L quicker than Anapurna

    Didn’t go back any further probably not much point as the Oaks is obviously expected to be slower than the CC as others have pointed out although it is still a fair chunk slower, I think if memory serves correct it rained for the Snowfall year so her time was good against Pyledriver as it would be making the ground worse as the day went on.

    #1650094
    Avatar photoIanDavies
    Blocked
    • Total Posts 12996

    “Always a red flag when they do a boost like that”

    Old head, young shoulders – 100%.

    It invariably means they can’t lay it/don’t fancy it/expect it to drift – plenty of price boosts end up at a bigger SP than the “special offer” and at an even bigger Betfair Exchange SP.

    I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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    #1650097
    Mike007
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    • Total Posts 9602

    ‘Always a red flag when they do a boost like that”

    I think one of the bookies did a price boost on Little Big Bear in the sprint race the other day. It doesn’t always work out for them bookies :o)
    Can’t blame BigG for having a go, the horse wasn’t exactly finishing his race at the back of the telly.

    #1650107
    Avatar photoIanDavies
    Blocked
    • Total Posts 12996

    No one said it always works out for the bookies, but it’s often a “tell.”

    And no one, least of all me, is blaming BigG for having a go – he’s too big for a start! – but Emily Upjohn’s 1.42 seconds faster than standard time earlier told me everything I needed to know about the ground, as I said here at the time.

    I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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    #1650115
    Mike007
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    • Total Posts 9602

    If i fancied a horse that was 6-4 and was offered at,say, 2-1 I’d happily take it. I know I’ve taken price boosts off of short/shortish favourites like that in the past that have won so it doesn’t bother me as being some sort of bad sign.

    #1650116
    Avatar photoIanDavies
    Blocked
    • Total Posts 12996

    Fair enough, Mike.

    I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Ian_Davies_
    https://www.facebook.com/ThePointtoPointNHandFlatracingpunter/
    It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"

    #1650202
    Avatar photoGingertipster
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    • Total Posts 34704

    “Price boosts” shouldn’t really be allowed.
    They’re there to help keep punters loyal to the brand and only available to some punters.
    First restrictions a punter gets from a bookmaker is often a notice saying any price boost advertised is not available to you and if taken in error will not be paid.

    Value Is Everything
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