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I also like over at the knee horses. I know one person who used Le Fou, and they are very happy with what they have. Polish Precedent wouldn’t have a good reputation as a sire of sires, but I think you are better off doing your own research, and making up your own mind.
I’m sorry Rusty, it wasn’t me who implied that your conformation was faulty! What was your impression of Telescope at Cheltenham? I was thinking of using him next year on my Authorized mare in the hope of producing a middle distance flat horse that could go hurdling if necessary.
Rusty we know what you don’t like, what have you used so far with success/floats your boat? Without knowing your mare’s breeding it is difficult to know what would be suitable. I like the dual purpose sires, we have used Mutathir, who is an outstanding stallion standing in France with winners on the flat and over fences. Medicean is another who is dual purpose though older now and not so fashionable, over the years I have gone off the big NH type stamp of sire, who throw horses who are likely to be at their best in time for the veteran races, if they are sound enough by then.
Might I butt in and ask you guys for your thoughts on researching soundness in wind in sires? Is it something you pay more attention to than limb?
Thats a difficult one, I know that Kings Theatres have more than his fair share of wind failures at the sales in Ireland. Some of the big hefty youngsters with thick gullets give you a clue as to wind problems. 25 years ago all our horses ran with no wind problems – jump on 10 years ago and nearly every horse we had in training had to have its wind tinkered with. You can only do your best and have the horses scoped at the sales for larynx paralysis etc but limb comes first as without 4 good ones your stuck. No studs want this sort of data flying about or no-one will use their stallions, mares need to sound and not have had wind issues to breed from.
Hi Diogenes, I liked Telescope alot, and I like your thinking, are you not a tadge worried that you might be overdoing Saddlers Wells and Northern dancer on both sides?
Very good question Steeplechasing, I agree with Obiwankenobi, you can only make sure the mares you have, or purchase, are free from wind problems, and try to make sure the dam of your mares are also free from problems. When I bought my mares I actually phoned the trainers of the dams as well, your be surprised how helpful they were about soundness, wind and characters, probably what I am saying in a long winded way is it pays to do your homework.
It would also be magnificent if there was a spreadsheet, by sire, of how many horses that have been produced, that have run in tongue straps, had a “tie back ” op or been Hobdayed, that really would put the cat amongst the pigeons.Obiwankenobi The best result of foal I have had so far is by Mountain High, lovely looking fellow, but when he races I will tell you if he is any good, a few years wait yet
I know that Kings Theatres have more than his fair share of wind failures at the sales in Ireland. Some of the big hefty youngsters with thick gullets give you a clue as to wind problems. 25 years ago all our horses ran with no wind problems – jump on 10 years ago and nearly every horse we had in training had to have its wind tinkered with.
That is most interesting.
Do you think that part of it is because veterinary science has advanced a lot, and therefore it’s easier to discover and sort minor wind problems, so trainers feel they ought to operate?
Or, have things really got worse in recent times? If we’re talking only 25 years, then the finger has to point at Sadler’s Wells, as he’s been by far the biggest single influence on national hunt breeding in the UK and Ireland, with so many of his sons covering vast books of jumping-bred mares.
Are French-bred jumpers less susceptible to these problems?
You have hit on a very good point, Steeplechasing, and something of a sore one. The ITBA used to publish a list of stallions that had a wind soundness certificate. You can still find it in old sales catalogues. Then the big boys didn’t like it, because not all of theirs were on it. Bingo! It was done away with. At an ITBA seminar last year, somebody tried to get an answer on this issue, but were thwarted by the chair and the panel. They wrote to the Irish Field to complain, and received a derisory response (the editor had been the chair at the seminar…) It’s very frustrating, and hard (impossible) to get an objective voice, with so many vested interests. The best you can do is research, and the internet is a great tool. As RustyRails says, look at the race record (both the sire and his family). Timeform annuals are handy too – not just on wind soundness, but other issues too. Some well known NH stallions suffered fractures in training, which is not a good start. I didn’t know about King’s Theatre. As a notable sire of fillies, many of whom will become broodmares, that’s a little worrying. One option is to use TB sires approved by the Irish Horse Board (or whatever they call it these days). They have to pass a stringent vetting, including x-rays. They also tend to be temperamentally sound, which is another overlooked and important attribute – no good having a horse with loads of ability if it isn’t a grafter. I’ll shut up now
I was interested enough in this to attempt to take up Rusty’s suggestion, albeit in a limited, exploratory way:
Saturday & Sunday NH cards in England and Ireland: 581 runners declared across 8 cards. Of these, 113 are declared to run in a tongue-tie (~19%). The 113 are the progeny of 75 stallions.Sires with multiple runners declared to run in a tongue-tie are as follows, with the figures in brackets indicating their additional runners over the weekend but not running in a tongue-tie: King’s Theatre: 7 (7); Beneficial: 7 (14); Westerner: 5 (8); Milan: 5 (23); Midnight Legend: 4 (7); Presenting: 4 (17); Definite Article: 3 (-). On 2 we have: Mastercraftsman (1); Dom Alco (1); Azamour (-); Flemensfirth (14); Yeats (2); Authorised (2); Scorpion (2); Kalanisi (5); Rip van Winkle (2); Oscar (10).
Of the 75 sires with progeny running in a tongue-tie, 15 are either sons of Sadler’s Wells, or from his line; 6 are from the Danehill line, and 4 are from other sons of Northern Dancer – so 33%.
There’s probably a fair amount of ‘noise’ in the data – e.g. I’m not at all sure whether some trainers regard a t-t as a ‘marginal gain’. Nonetheless, the overall number declared to run in one did surprise me. If t-ts are a reliable proxy for wind issues then there is a problem.
As interesting as the names with multiple t-t declared runners are those that have several runners over the weekend but don’t seem to have any that need a tongue-tie – either that, or they’re with trainers who don’t use them.
Be interesting to hear how this tallies (or not) with what you guys know.
Very interesting responses, thank you. Nice work, Titus, but before this hare I’ve set running gathers more speed, let me ask this…
Would wind infirmities be considered a genetic drawback at all? I ask this because I’ve read a number of experts who claim that racing is an unnatural thing, even for a racehorse and the exertion is such that it pushes the vast majority of horses – 90% + – so far outside a natural exertion zone that bleeding of some kind is inevitable. As you know, in many animals that bleeding does not show; but still, the damage has been done.
Now, when a horse bleeds, or when its system is trying to avoid bleeding, is the respiratory system higher up the chain – the windpipe, the throat, the nostril cavities etc being put under abnormal pressure to provide more oxygen thus leading to breakdown of one or more of those parts which, had such pressure not been applied, would have held up perfectly well?
I think what I’m trying to get at here is that a horse with an obvious limb conformation issue which limits its movement mechanically and could easily be passed on to its stock, well, there is nothing you can do about it. The weakness is there. But can a wind breakdown, which is artificially forced upon a horse, be viewed in the same light? Can something artificially produced be passed on too?
Clear as mud probably, but I hope you get my drift.
Great thread; fascinating stuff. Daft question I’m afraid, but does keeping a horse stabled a lot of the time add to wind problems or is that something completely different? Someone at my gym has a brother whose stud stands Brian Boru and Vinnie Roe so I’m hoping to learn more from her about that side of things. Someone on the radio mentioned Mahler as a stallion to watch out for.
Well some very interesting comments to read which is great.
Titus well done for your analysis, but I might of sent you in slightly the wrong direction, tongue ties can be used in some circumstances as prevention rather than cure, for instance -:
Some horses will get their tongue over the bit when racing, which leaves the pilot with very little steering an no brakes, not funny when your the pilot, tongue tie stops that
Some horses will swallow their tongue towards the end of the race, therefore restrict breathing, tongue tie stops that
Some trainers just use them to increase air flow, do you remember when every athlete, rugby player,and jockeys wore those funny straps on their noses to increase air flow, well same sort of thing really.
I think Tie back and hobdaying really tells you when the trainer knows he has a horse with wind problems, and the only real data is maybe in the NH sales catalogues where it must be listed if any of those operations have happened. that would be a massive task to collate that data.
As regards Sadlers Wells shall I phone Coolmore and tell the lads they must cease all breeding from Galileo,sorry couldnt help that one lolMoehat yes keeping horses in does increase the risk of wind problems, bedding whether be it straw, shavings or paper has dust, hay has dust, some horses crib bite, little bits of wood going down the throat does not help. Alot of trainers do turn out horses if they have enough ground, in the winter when the ground is like a paddy field that can be restrictive, and increase the risk of mud fever, or worse a horse damaging itself whilst trying to turn itself inside out bucking and kicking for fun.
In fact why did I ever get involved in this sport anyway I ask?….ha haBecause there are so many imponderables and it’s endlessly fascinating [albeit hard on the wallet!]. The person I spoke to said her brother uses a lot of baby oil on the horses and foals, but I guess that’s to deter flies in the summer [although it might help with mud fever perhaps]. I’ve always liked the way that Venetia seems to turn her horses out, because it must make a lot more work. But then I guess they need to get used to mud [Rigadin de Beauchene currently leading his race as I type].
Willie Mullins turns his horses out and that`s how he lost Vautour the other week !!!!!
Hi Steeplechasing, I think you can probably differentiate between wind issues and bleeding, although it’s an interesting thought that one might put pressure on the other. Wind problems can be genetic. Certain stallions are known to pass it on (and mares too, obviously, but we are mainly discussing stallions). However, as alluded to on other posts, a horse can also suffer wind issues due to health or environmental problems. I don’t believe that we know as much about bleeding. As you say, it is assumed that a large % of horses bleed to some extent. Limb deformities are another can of worms, because some (by no means all) can be remedied by clever farriery and surgery – so the stallion that you see with correct limbs may not have been born that way. OF course the other spanner to throw in the works is that crooked/unsound horses can produce correct offspring, and vice versa. All you can do is try and reduce the unknowns.
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