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It’s 3m2f around Cheltenham on good ground – who wins?
Got a suspicion I am going to be in a minority of one as I think Looks Like Trouble goes off in front and runs the other two ragged. I think he was a massively underrated horse who never got the credit he deserved.
1st Kauto Star
3rd Best Mate
4th Looks Like Trouble.Who finished second?
If however Stilvi is correct then LLT is second and the horse in the above finishing order that finished second is first
Plenty of NH fans have been telling me for years that jumping is the name of the game, if this is the case them Best Mate wins as for me he was the best jumper.
I suppose the Best Mate knockers will disagree though but who cares as nothing can be proven.
Kauto would eat them alive. Different class of horse altogether. He covered the distance between the second last and the winning post fully 3 seconds faster than Best Mate ever did and Best mate wouldn’t have seen LLT stand in his way.
Horse wasn’t vastly underrated at all he just wasn’t that good a Gold Cup winner.
I am a fan of both Kauto Star and Best Mate. It could well be a photo finish.
Looks Like Trouble would, in my humble opinion, be outclassed.
Is Kauto Star, for all his undoubted class, capable of giving away lumps of weight to his rivals in the same manner Desert Orchid or Arkle did? I have my doubts.
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Impish curiosity compels me to ask Stilvi which horse, in this hypothetical face-off, is to be ridden by Timmy Murphy.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
I am a fan of both Kauto Star and Best Mate. It could well be a photo finish.
Looks Like Trouble would, in my humble opinion, be outclassed.
Is Kauto Star, for all his undoubted class, capable of giving away lumps of weight to his rivals in the same manner Desert Orchid or Arkle did? I have my doubts.
Well if they rerun his first outing a week on Satutday which would carry your money?
I think everyone would bet Kauto but that doesn’t really answer your question. Arkle gave 35lbs and more to good horses and beat them……will we ever see performances like that again? I very much doubt it.
If all goes well this season Kauto will probably go for the same races again next and I can’t see them changing that. If he gets beat first time out they won’t give a hoot.
He will be judged on how good he really is in March……..He is expected at Kempton and it probably won’t do much to boost his rep if he does. He wins the Gold Cup by 10 or 12 lengths and then he will be shouted from every roof top as the best since Arkle and who would argue?
I really don’t think he will never be asked to give away lumps of weight like Arkle …..refresh my memory "H" I can’t remember Dessie giving away lots of wieght in a chase………getting too friggin old for this
1st Kauto Star
2nd Looks like trouble 6 lengths down
3rd Best mate 1 length further backrefresh my memory "H" I can’t remember Dessie giving away lots of wieght in a chase
1990 Irish National IIRC. But most of the field were out of the handicap.
As for the question posed, I’m pretty sure such a top-class race would prove a little too much for LLT. I’m not sure I could split the other two, Kauto Star is almost certainly the more talented animal, but 3m2 at Cheltenham has Best Mate C&D written all over it. For me it could well depend on how much Matey finds under pressure against such a good opponent.
I think everyone would bet Kauto but that doesn’t really answer your question. Arkle gave 35lbs and more to good horses and beat them……will we ever see performances like that again? I very much doubt it.
If all goes well this season Kauto will probably go for the same races again next and I can’t see them changing that. If he gets beat first time out they won’t give a hoot.
He will be judged on how good he really is in March……..He is expected at Kempton and it probably won’t do much to boost his rep if he does. He wins the Gold Cup by 10 or 12 lengths and then he will be shouted from every roof top as the best since Arkle and who would argue?
I really don’t think he will never be asked to give away lumps of weight like Arkle …..refresh my memory "H" I can’t remember Dessie giving away lots of wieght in a chase………getting too friggin old for this
Yes, yes, I know all about Arkle’s race history – hence my moniker and avatar.
As for Desert Orchid. I’m sure it is well known that Dessie gave lumps of weight away in victory to some good horses. The Irish National (as mentioned) carrying 12st and winning by 12 lengths; The Racing Post Chase, carrying 12st 3lbs; The Victor Chandler H’cap Chase at Ascot, where he beat Panto Prince (rec. 22lbs) and he carried 11st 11lbs (the same weight as Diamond Edge and Mill House did) when winning the Whitbread Gold Cup.
That said, round Cheltenham he wasn’t the same horse, and I could name various Gold Cup winners of past years who I believe could have beaten him round there – including Kauto Star.
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To expand on my earlier point.
1st Kauto star
2nd Nick Dundee – 3 lengths
3rd Best Mate – neck
4th Looks Like Trouble – 2 lengthsWell, not too surprised.
I happen to think the supposed top class form of both Kauto Star and Best Mate over the actual distance being considered is a little thin on the ground. Do we prefer a five length defeat of Florida Pearl or a five length defeat of Turpin Green? Looks Like Trouble is one of the few horses to do the Sun Alliance/Gold Cup double. He backed that up with a runaway win in a Pillar Chase. Cheltenham clearly brought out the best in him. When successful no horse got near him. As for Best Mate his greatest quality was remaining sound for three years in a row because in terms of form struggling home against the likes of Commanche Court and Sir Rembrandt really doesn’t add up to a lot.
There is no doubt Best Mate and Kauto Star can be considered more versatile but over the course and distance that really matters I think Trouble would have sorted them both out.
To expand on my earlier point.
1st Kauto star
2nd Nick Dundee – 3 lengths
3rd Best Mate – neck
4th Looks Like Trouble – 2 lengthsYou would get no argument from on that.
When Nick Dundee and Looks like trouble met at Cheltenham I was very very impressed. One minute they were racing in a bunch and in an unbelievable short space of time the 2 had gone miles clear.
It was an amazing sight but what was even more amazing was Nick Dundee was still hack cantering when he fell. The fact LLT went on to win the Gold Cup only highlighted for me just how good Nick Dundee was…..unfortunately we never got to find out just how good, but the mind boggles.
It amazes me that people still believe Nick Dundee would have won. As far as I recall he won one novice chase over 3m when most of the significant opposition failed to finish. He was essentially a very good 2m4f horse, so it was probably not a surprise that he appeared to be travelling well when he departed. I suspect Williamson was trying to nurse him because he knew the tank would empty very quickly. You need a 3m2f horse to win a Sun Alliance and if you don’t get home you win nothing at Cheltenham. I have little doubt Nick Dundee would simply have been outstayed – I doubt whether he would have got within ten lengths of Looks Like Trouble.
Hi – new on here but had to stick my oar in where two of my all time favourites are being mentioned.
Glad someone brought Nick Dundee into this
without a doubt the best I’ve seen (not old enough for Arkle…). Any horse that can be cantering all over Looks Like Trouble must have been something awesome.Hm…a rational stab at this. Not sure I can do it, too much heart over head going on as I spend half the Lambourn Open Day standing with LLT sneaking him polos and telling people what they’re looking at (surprising how many don’t know
)Oh well….
1. Nick Dundee
2. LLT
3. Kauto
4. Best MateAre we not looking at Nick Dundee’s career through rose-tinted spectacles? Yes he was a seriously good novice and he looked to be cantering all over Looks Like Trouble. But the race ended 3 out for him, a hell of a long way from home, too far out to be certain of what may or may not have happened afterwards.
The eulogising about him on here also fails to take into account how much Looks Like Trouble improved in his second season. Let’s not forget that Nick Dundee did come back. I know it’s likely he probably lost some of his ability after such a bad injury, but given connections, there’s no way they would have bought him back if he wasn’t 100% sound. He didn’t look close to being top class outside of novice company.
If the likes of Florida Pearl and Escartefigue hadn’t raced after their novice campaigns, the same would be said about how many Gold Cups they would have won.
without a doubt the best I’ve seen (not old enough for Arkle…). Any horse that can be cantering all over Looks Like Trouble must have been something awesome.
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