- This topic has 78 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 18 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
I think BM was the better horse but LLT did break down in that Gold Cup and he wasn’t the same horse then anyway as he’d been off for a year through injury.
I’m not saying Best Mate wasn’t a better horse than Looks Like Trouble, but I’m of the opinion Looks Like Trouble wasn’t right from an early stage in the race, the way he jumped and edged persistently to his right suggested he was feeling something. That he was dismounted after crossing the line and was retired on the spot adds weight to that.
Possibly but it shouldn’t. Not quite the same perhaps but going way back Mill House was overshadowed by Arke but no one ever doubted he was a seriously good horse. Good enough to carry top weight in the Hennesy and run everything in the race into the ground.
For me LLT was an ordinary gold cup winner nothing more nothing less. Superstar he was not.
RE:- NUTS……. couldn’t agree more…..LTT would have been a nice lead horse for the rest.
RE:- Jockeys……….Much depends on the Jockey NW is well known as being an excellent judge of a race/horses ability, while many are worse judges than a punter on a bad day.
Norman Williamson wanted to be on My Way De Solzen six out last Saturday.
Jockeys / trainers / owners / pundits I take no notice of whatsoever.
I’m not arguing that BM was 40+ lengths or whatever it was better than LLT that would be sheer baloney but the fact of the matter is that ND was badly injured (worse than LLT suffered) and people are taking his form when he came back at face value when it clearly wasn’t his showing.
I’ve not seen the LLT vs. ND Sun Alliance Chase in a while so can’t remember the exact details (hope someone can fill them in for me) but at I’m pretty sure at worst ND was travelling as well as LLT when coming down.
Irish Stamp, I think the general consensus is that Nick Dundee was travelling much the best of the pair going to 3 out.
Nick Dundee looked to be travelling better than Looks Like Trouble when he came down but that isn’t to say he wouldn’t have stopped to nothing in another couple of furlongs. Looks Like Trouble had been under pressure for a long way and kept finding – I suspect Nick Dundee would have capitulated very quickly under pressure. Leaving aside how much ability he retained what distances did they run him over when he returned – connections knew he didn’t stay.
As for Looks Like Trouble’s second Gold Cup he did fantastically well to stay in front for so long effectively running on three legs. It is ludicrous to judge his merit on that performance.
Irish he wasn’t travelling better than him he was pissing all over the top of him. Never have I seen a horse going better than he was…….they set of at a helluva gallop that day and all of a sudden the two left everything for dead…..I thought everything else had been pulled up
Norman hadn’t moved a muscle on ND and he wasn’t nursing the horse the horse was simply running away with Norman who was sitting motionless wondering when to push the button….if he had jumped the fence and Norman had said boo he would have gone 10 lengths clear and that old boat’s jockey (ok half decent boat) would be looking around hoping a taxi would come along and give him a lift the rest of the way.You don’t have to be a genius to spot a real top class horse like Arkle, Mill House One man Captain Christy Kauto Star and the likes……most have got a big stamp on there head which says "here I am are you blind as well as daft". ND was a little bit different, he had one on his ass and LLT would have spent a lot of time reading it had ND stayed sound
1999 Sun Alliance Chase Looks Like Trouble[/url:37wtk9ts]
Norman Williamson interview[/url:37wtk9ts]Very impressive the way the front two pulled clear of the field. Norman Williamson says in the interview that Paul Carberry told him he was beaten on Looks Like Trouble. When you look at what LLT went on to achieve you do wonder what Nick Dundee could have gone on to do.
By the way, in my opinion Looks Like Trouble had just as much ability as Best Mate but unlike BM couldn’t stay injury free to win any more Gold Cups. Kauto Star would beat both in my view.
You don’t have to be a genius to spot a real top class horse like Arkle, Mill House One man Captain Christy Kauto Star and the likes……most have got a big stamp on there head which says "here I am are you blind as well as daft". ND was a little bit different, he had one on his ass and LLT would have spent a lot of time reading it had ND stayed sound
You don’t have to be a genius to point them out after they have proven themselves.
If asked to name my top 5 memories of racing (both good and bad) Nick Dundee’s fall would be in there.
I have no doubt – albeit only my opinion – that he would have won the RSA eased down that day.
BUT to use the oldest cliche in the book, the name of the game is jumping and Nick Dundee’s record was pretty poor in that department. I’m not going to check the RP web-site but I’d say he fell (or UR) nearly as much as he didn’t.
I still can’t remember seeing a NH horse with such potential but I doubt he’d have beaten Best Mate on good ground around Cheltenham in March- not without sorting his jumping out anyhow.
That 3rd last doesn’t get any easier when you’re starting to scrub along.
Anyhow – back to the thread.
Kauto Star has won both of this country’s top honours- beating the same horse on both occasion. The beaten horse has never won a G1 chase – admittedly mainly because of KS – and his casualty list doesn’t set the world alight. Other horses are knocked for the very same reason.
Best Mate won a King George and 3 gold cups.
The times he was beaten: –
Monsignor – an outstanding horse that unfortunately was prevented from greatness due to injury. 2nd in possibly the hottest Tolworth we’ll see in a long while.
Sausalito Bay – again hurdles, trip maybe too short by this stage. Supreme Novices winner with BM a more than honourable second.
Barton – another brilliant festival winner. Again beaten over hurdles.
Wahiba Sands – Not the greatest I agree and no real excuses but was giving a fair bit of weight away.
Florida Pearl – no disgrace and a more confident ride would have saw a 2nd KG.
The only one I’d say is weak is the defeat to JDC – whom many thought to be a champion in the making at the time.
Untill his sad demise he was never out of the first 2 and with different tactics and more fortune could easily boast a supreme novices, an arkle, 3 gold cups and 2 King George’s to his name.
In this day and age I doubt I’ll ever see a horse come so close to repeating that. Kicking King is the nearest but was stuffed in the SN, beat a hunter in the KG, won 1 GC and was admittedly very close to a top drawer 2 miler in the Arkle but was still beaten. Yet he is given much more credit.
I cannot believe people can knock BM and yet heap praise on KS.
Easy 1, 2, 3
1. BM
2. KS
3. LLTAsk me again in 2 years it might be different but …
Back to the beers.
Lee
Best Mate wouldn’t have beaten Exotic Dancer let alone Kauto Star. These two are different league. Exotic Dancer might not have won a Grade 1 but without Kauto he’d have won almost everything worth winning.
Interestingly the RPR rate Best Mate some two lengths inferior to Exotic Dancer on best form, I think thats about right.
Best Mate was lucky enough to be around in a really poor era for staying chasers.
Best Mate was lucky – I agree.
Every other horse around at the time was rubbish. For six years we never had a horse of any calibre – hurdles or fences.
ED wins two handicaps and beats My Will by fifteen lengths
. Arkle watch out."These two are different league" – I end my case there – you are quite correct. One is a handicapper and one has more gold cups than any horse since …. erm can’t remember the name – is it Exotic Dancer ?
I don’t argue over the internet but am slightly erm.. so Flash as polite as I can say: – You class a G2 winner (once) in a different league to a 3xGC, KG winner ? – Can I be your bookie please – even stoned ?
Lee
What youare doing is trying to justify your claims through a form book which is worse than trying to compare two horse from different era’s
Best Mate lacked the instant acceleration to put his races beyond doubt in the fashion we have seen Kauto do time after time. BM wasn’t a brilliant jumper he was a good economical jumper.
WE can look back and say Mill House only won one and din’t win 3 gold cups so BM must be better……….Mill House would have beaten him 20 lengths without breaking sweat. Captain Christy would have anihalated him and you could go on and on………..he simply wasn’t a great gold cup winner…………I will admit he was better than many off them but when you start throwing names about like Mill House, Arkle Captain Christy L’Escargot The Dickler Tied Cottage(Won and Disq, Should have won 2) Silver Buck and Master Oats you are talking a different class of animal.
I personally don’t think Best Mate wouldnt have beaten any of them but Kauto would have beaten them all bar Arkle and possibly Mill House at his best. Best Mate was very lucky there wasn’t a decent horse to be found in 2 of his Cold Cups
Kauto has unbeliveable instant accelaration which Best Mate never had and when he is 100% right and Ruby says go nothing around can live with him. We haven’t seen anthing of his best yet that is still to come IMO
Rarely has the Gold Cup been about one horse. Up to now only Arkle can boast of that..but now Kauto is being talked about all day everyday by newspapers Magazines Trainers Jockeys and punters alike…he is a superstar in his own right and Best Mate was no where near as popular………just about everyone thinks he’ll win the Gold Cup ……..the doubters are saying BUT! What If! and if he doesn’t etc………no one is saying there is one better or can come up with a decent argument to say why he would lose.
Best Mate was lucky – I agree.
Every other horse around at the time was rubbish. For six years we never had a horse of any calibre – hurdles or fences.
ED wins two handicaps and beats My Will by fifteen lengths
. Arkle watch out."These two are different league" – I end my case there – you are quite correct. One is a handicapper and one has more gold cups than any horse since …. erm can’t remember the name – is it Exotic Dancer ?
I don’t argue over the internet but am slightly erm.. so Flash as polite as I can say: – You class a G2 winner (once) in a different league to a 3xGC, KG winner ? – Can I be your bookie please – even stoned ?
Lee
Certainly. However, one look at my betting records and you might change your mind. Exotic Dancer – a "handicapper", you’re having a laugh.
Concerning the Kauto Star v Exotic Dancer debate.
I believe Exotic Dancer, like Mill House, is destined to live in the shadows of a better horse.
The question being: Is Exotic Dancer the horse his supporters think and trusts he is?
To me, the true benchmark of greatness in a steeplechaser is the ability to not only defeat his contemporaries at level weights, but also to concede weight to the same horses. Again, I question whether KS ( for all his undoubted talent) would be up to that task.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Norman hadn’t moved a muscle on ND and he wasn’t nursing the horse the horse was simply running away with Norman who was sitting motionless wondering when to push the button….if he had jumped the fence and Norman had said boo he would have gone 10 lengths clear and that old boat’s jockey (ok half decent boat) would be looking around hoping a taxi would come along and give him a lift the rest of the way.
. Arkle watch out.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.