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BM wasn’t a brilliant jumper he was a good economical jumper.
What?
He was a superb jumper. It was almost as if the fences were 2 feet high. Surely the key was that he made it look so easy and hardly ever lost a stride. Few horses i have seen have made jumping look so easy
Concerning the Kauto Star v Exotic Dancer debate.
I believe Exotic Dancer, like Mill House, is destined to live in the shadows of a better horse.
The question being: Is Exotic Dancer the horse his supporters think and trusts he is?
To me, the true benchmark of greatness in a steeplechaser is the ability to not only defeat his contemporaries at level weights, but also to concede weight to the same horses. Again, I question whether KS ( for all his undoubted talent) would be up to that task.
Weight carrying is about size not ability. Would Istabraq be any worse than Night Nurse on the basis that he couldn’t lump 12 stone around in a handicap hurdle
The great horses can carry weight is the biggest myth in racing.
Weight carrying is about size not ability. Would Istabraq be any worse than Night Nurse on the basis that he couldn’t lump 12 stone around in a handicap hurdle
The great horses can carry weight is the biggest myth in racing.
I beg to differ. I think it is about ability. I specifically mentioned steeplechasers as this thread about the merits of those horses who primarily participated in this discipline. The Istabraq argument is based on mere hypothesis, as he was never asked to concede great lumps of weight to his rivals. That said, it is not beyond the bounds of reasoning to think that he could have done so and still won. Jim McGrath (the other one) is fond of saying that weight stops trains. How very true, and I for one cannot argue with this: who would? As many racing expert has remarked: it was Arkle’s weight carrying feats in handicaps which helped cement his greatness; more so than his Gold Cup triumphs.
That is why I believe that the really great chasers such as Arkle, Mill House, Burrough Hill Lad and Desert Orchid who all won Gold Cups during their careers, and who defied that old adage, are the true benchmark of "greatness." I would love to seen Best Mate try, as I would Kauto Star.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Himself,
I would like you to explain how Kauto Star could have done more than he did last season, which included running in a Handicap, 3 grade 1 chases at 3 mile plus, and a second consecutive tingle creek.
Not sure how you could conclude that doesn’t consitute greatness..
Which handicaps are we talking about? where would they fit in to the programme ? Why go for the hennessey when you have the Betfair and the bonus?
Perhaps the Racing Post chase, but im simply not convinced by this argument. Maybe Kauto will run in a handicap at some stage but it simply cannot be a target when the alternatives are grade ones. His versatility up to now has left him with many options
And were there quite so many options in Arkle and Mill houses day?
Himself,
I would like you to explain how Kauto Star could have done more than he did last season, which included running in a Handicap, 3 grade 1 chases at 3 mile plus, and a second consecutive tingle creek.
Not sure how you could conclude that doesn’t consitute greatness..
I do not doubt for one nano second that Kauto Star is a top class animal. He has captured my imagination, that’s for sure. I have backed in every races (bar one *) he has run in for the last three seasons. There is no greater admirer that this horse than me. I shall again back the horse with a the utmost confidence in the forthcoming King George. After he won last season’s Betfair at Haydock, I was blown away. Think of every superlative in the book and I uttered them that day. A top class animal without a shadow of doubt.
But that is not the point I’m making. I backed Monet’s Garden against him at Aintree*, not just because he needed the run, but more importantly – because I did not believe that he was capable of conceding the weight to another class horse. Maybe I’m being a trite pernickity, but until the day he wins a Hennessy or a Whitbread, for example, carrying top weight and against other good horses, then, and only then can he be mentioned in the same breath as an a Arkle or a Mill house – as some pundits are currently doing. Incidentally, though I may hold this opinion – doesn’t necessarily mean its gospel. Pray differ if you will.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
There is more hype about horses now than there ever was in the past. It is hard to believe that even Arkle got the coverage given to Kauto Star. In terms of versatility Kauto Star had an exceptional season last year but at the Championship distance his form is clearly not of the highest class. Irrespective of how highly you rate Exotic Dancer beating Turpin Green five lengths in a Gold Cup is no great shakes compared to many previous Gold Cup winners. Struggling home against L’Ami was hardly impressive either.
Clive,
From my posts I did not aim to knock Kauto Star or Exotic Dancer even.
What I find "incredible" is how people can categorically state that KS is a better horse than Best Mate was. To say ED is in a different league is … well I’m lost for words.
I agree that we can’t compare horses from different eras but people were constantly having a dig at BM for beating nothing of note yet KS has done the same but is seen as the second coming.
Believe it or not I wasn’t a huge BM fan but (as somebody said regarding ND vs LLT earlier in the thread) the form book doesn’t lie.
BM won 3 gold cups, KS has won one.
Time may tell that KS is a better horse – and I hope it does – but to my mind he needs to do a bit more yet.
Lee
Wilsonl – You can only beat what you’re competing against. Best Mate won three Gold Cups but to be perfectly honest he did not beat one top class three and a quarter mile horse to win any one of his Gold Cups. Horses like Florida Pearl didn’t stay that sort of trip properly.
Kauto Star on the other hand beat Exotic Dancer who without Kauto would’ve won King George, Gold Cup, Betfair Chase, Betfair Bowl.
How many of those would Commanche Court, Truckers Tavern or Sir Rembrandt have won even if you took half a dozen horses out of the equation?
Kauto’s Gold Cup form is way more solid than any of Best Mate’s.
A Blackpool donkey could win 3 Gold Cups if competing against other Blackpool donkeys.
Wilsonl – You can only beat what you’re competing against. Best Mate won three Gold Cups but to be perfectly honest he did not beat one top class three and a quarter mile horse to win any one of his Gold Cups. Horses like Florida Pearl didn’t stay that sort of trip properly.
Kauto Star on the other hand beat Exotic Dancer who without Kauto would’ve won King George, Gold Cup, Betfair Chase, Betfair Bowl.
How many of those would Commanche Court, Truckers Tavern or Sir Rembrandt have won even if you took half a dozen horses out of the equation?
Kauto’s Gold Cup form is way more solid than any of Best Mate’s.
A Blackpool donkey could win 3 Gold Cups if competing against other Blackpool donkeys.
Ok so while dismissing the three under-par gold cups – which BTW I admit were, you are rating Kauto Star on his consistent beating of Exotic Dancer, who you state would have mopped up without Kauto Star being around.
You must rate ED highly then.
Therefore using your argument: –
Hypothetically speaking, Kauto Star never left France. Exotic Dancer wins a KG, a GC, BB & BC. The horses he beat are: – an 11 yr old BoS, Turpin Green and Racing Demon.
Doesn’t sound too impressive does it ?
Wilsonl – You can only beat what you’re competing against. Best Mate won three Gold Cups but to be perfectly honest he did not beat one top class three and a quarter mile horse to win any one of his Gold Cups. Horses like Florida Pearl didn’t stay that sort of trip properly.
Kauto Star on the other hand beat Exotic Dancer who without Kauto would’ve won King George, Gold Cup, Betfair Chase, Betfair Bowl.
How many of those would Commanche Court, Truckers Tavern or Sir Rembrandt have won even if you took half a dozen horses out of the equation?
Kauto’s Gold Cup form is way more solid than any of Best Mate’s.
A Blackpool donkey could win 3 Gold Cups if competing against other Blackpool donkeys.
Ok so while dismissing the three under-par gold cups – which BTW I admit were, you are rating Kauto Star on his consistent beating of Exotic Dancer, who you state would have mopped up without Kauto Star being around.
You must rate ED highly then.
Therefore using your argument: –
Hypothetically speaking, Kauto Star never left France. Exotic Dancer wins a KG, a GC, BB & BC. The horses he beat are: – an 11 yr old BoS, Turpin Green and Racing Demon.
Doesn’t sound too impressive does it ?
Racing Demon is a very good horse. Needs things to go his way but he’s high class when things do.
Beef Or Salmon has won how many Grade 1’s? He is a genuine top class horse but not with the greatest overall form in England admittedly though doesn’t run badly at Haydock.
Turpin Green is a nutcase but his run in the Gold Cup was top class. Another that can’t be trusted but is certainly capable.
Turpin Green is no better than the likes of Sir Rembrandt, Commanche Court and Truckers Tavern.
Turpin Green is no better than the likes of Sir Rembrandt, Commanche Court and Truckers Tavern.
I’m not sure I agree. I can see what you’re saying in terms of overall form but his best run was in the Gold Cup. Maybe thats the sort of stamina test he needs? I’d have the jury still out on him to be honest at the moment but he’s one of those horses who I’d agree is likely to put in the odd good show admist about seven or eight bad ones.
LLT trouble could have galloped both into the ground based on his peformance against Nick Dundee. It was a shame he was never the same when up against BM.
There is more hype about horses now than there ever was in the past. It is hard to believe that even Arkle got the coverage given to Kauto Star. In terms of versatility Kauto Star had an exceptional season last year but at the Championship distance his form is clearly not of the highest class. Irrespective of how highly you rate Exotic Dancer beating Turpin Green five lengths in a Gold Cup is no great shakes compared to many previous Gold Cup winners. Struggling home against L’Ami was hardly impressive either.
What he beat that day was what was in front of him. Had it been best mate what could he have done differently that would have resulted in a different result?
1. Spread wings?
2. Found more acceleration than Kauto Star did.
3. Farted in Kauto’s face and knocked him out before he flew past him like he did the others?
3 would be the only possibility
You talk about hype in racing….Kauto Star gets talked about because he is a brilliant individual, He is already going to be remembered as one of the best chasers of all time, even if he never ran again. We are talking about a virtual baby here who hasn’t even reached his peak and 80% of people in racing, or more, already rate him higher, than they did Best Mate……..That is simply because he is better horse……..He has one chink in his armour and that’s these dreeadful jumping error he makes out of the blue…them aside he is a much more spectacular jumper than Best Mate ever was, has more acceleration than Best Mate ever showed and can win at all distances in top class company………he is just an awesome horse that people love to watch. Comparing him and Best Mate is like comparing the Beatles to Hermans Hermit or the acting abilities of Johnny Depp and Kermit the Frog ..there just isn’t a comparison…….
BTW In the UK Arkle was a household name my friend and got 100 times the coverage of Kauto. He was the Beatles of music, Mohammad Ali of Boxing, The Pele of Football and The JFK of presidents all rolled into one. Never has a racehorse been so well known. My brothers and sister knew who Arkle was even my Great Grandmother watched him everytime he ran on Telly. My uncle never went racing in his life except when he took me and my brother to Sandown to see Arkle when he won the Gallagher Gold Cup……….we were 3 of thousands and thousands of non racing people who turned out see "himself"……he had a massive fan club that would have made Red Rum look like an unknown Pop Group from the outer Hebrides……sorry but your a mile of the Mark with that statement.
I have a friend who lives in Old Bricket Wood just outside St. Albans. At the end of her garden is a pub called, I think,The Fox – it used to have a photo behind the bar of Arkle outside the pub with his lad having a pint [the lad, not Arkle]…I was told that when he ran at Sandown/Kempton he was stabled nearby and he used to hack through the woods – when I visit my friend I always imagine him walking past the end of her cottage. Sadly the pub has been refurbished and the photo has gone – I hope to goodness that someone has it somewhere and it wasn’t thrown out, as I always meant to ask for a copy of it when I was there….I stood in front of his skeleton in Ireland with tears streaming down my face a few years ago [however, I still havn’t forgiven him for beating my beloved Mill House [love the photo by the way!]…
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