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Ryan didn’t look happy from an early stage today, but the horse has won comfortably despite not being anywhere near his best.
The purpose of this thread, though, is to discuss where Kyprios stands among the great modern-day stayers.
There have been the likes of Double Trigger, Yeats, Stradivarius, etc, who have had long and successful careers.
Then you have the the “one-hit wonders”, such as Papineau and Mr Dinos, who looked incredible on their day but don’t have the overall CV, in my opinion at least.
I would like to give an honourable mention to Trueshan, who looked unbeatable for a while from his first Champions Day win until he got jarred up behind Kyprios at Goodwood and hasn’t been the same horse since.
But, overall, I’m going to say that Kyprios is the best stayer I’ve seen since Ardross.
Thoughts?
Kyprios is tough as they come, love his attitude. I think maybe Yeats was better (i think he would’ve won the Derby as a 3 yr old as well), but Kyprios is up there against the rest of them.
Hes some horse ,has come back from injury in great nick . Watched race with interest with view to MC and Vauban , Kyprios , well they could lump 80 kgs on Kyprios and he would bust the MC field to bits down the Flemington straight .
If it comes up heavy at longchamp on the arc surely must be tempted to take a punt. As far as I can see only Los Angeles and continuous likely to run with opera singer probably headed to the breeders Cup. He must have gone close 2 years ago if hed ran in it.
The fact staying races have less prestige than middle distances means if a horse wins a good Group 1 1m4f race they seldom or never race at real staying trips. If I remember rightly Blakeney is the last Derby winner to run in the Ascot Gold Cup. Even in the eighties, you do have to wonder if connections would’ve run Ardross in Cup races had his close second in the Arc been run before taking the Cup route. “Prestige” means many potential top stayers don’t race in the staying division (Los Angeles?)… Especially when many of them are trained in the same stable…And that in turn obviously means the average ability of top stayers are going to be a little worse than top middle-distance horses… But only by a little and there are some stayers whose ability rivals those in shorter races. Kyprios just one.
Kyprios is certainly up with the best stayers since Ardross, Glad.
For me – in contrast to what seems is often written and said – we’ve had a lot of excellent stayers in the last decade or more. Do think some racing enthusiasts talk down stayers, just because they have less speed. Kyprios is one who is often pushed along to even go at a stayers pace, so imo is unlikely to be as effective if running in an Arc. But his actual form shown at the finishing line is real top class. Kyprios currently 128 Timeform’s third best horse of the year of any distance. Only City Of Troy (2 lb) and Calandagan (1 lb) better. Ardross was 134, still 4lb better than City Of Troy.When top stayers occasionally run against 12f horses most will not show the same ability they showed at staying distances because they don’t have enough speed. Just as not many top milers show the same level of form at 1m4f, because they don’t have enough stamina. One exception was Order Of St George, who probably ran to his best in reaching the frame twice in the Arc. An under-rated horse in the echelons of stayers probably because he was past his best when beaten by Stradivarius. Although at staying distances Strad’ was probably at least OOSG’s equal. Strad and Kyprios were probably as good as each other. Strad imo not getting the run of the race when meeting Kyprios. Trawlerman isn’t far behind the pair either. Beat a slightly below par Kyprios in last Year’s Champion Stayers. Good shout with Trueshan. I see Timeform have his best rating as on the AW in the Northumberland Plate… Needed soft on turf and age has caught up with him now. Yeats is a little tricky to assess because he tended to beat inferior stayers. Indeed, had Coolmore raced stable companions Septimus and the enigmatic Scorpion against him more often, I doubt Yeats would have won as many races. Septimus in particular was potentially a better racehorse. That said, Yeats was another top stayer in the class of Kyprios and Stradivarius. Extremely difficult to choose who was the best of them. I know he was once Derby favourite, but – at least in his latter years – was a thorough stayer. Another probably without the speed to challenge for middle-distance honours.
Value Is EverythingYeats won the Coronation Cup in 2005, although he may have been slightly fortunate (the favourite was given a poor ride).
Staying is the flat equivalent of 3-mile hurdling; an option if they aren’t quick enough for middle distances
I can never get excited about “staying” races on the flat or over jumps but predominantly on the flat.
The more I know the less I understand.
I first got into racing in 1980, and one of the first races I can remember watching was the Ascot Gold Cup that year. That nail biting, pulsating finish between Le Moss and Ardross had me enthralled, and I have loved my long-distance races ever since.
Give me one two-mile flat race over an infinite number of boring five-furlong sprints any day of the week.
“Yeats won the Coronation Cup in 2005, although he may have been slightly fortunate (the favourite was given a poor ride)”.
—————————I was thinking Yeats 2005 Corry Cup was below his best form too, CAS. No Ouija Board, Grey Swallow, North Light, Bago or Doyen in the field. So it wasn’t a great field by Group 1 standards. In Timeform Racehorses Of 2005 they have him running to 125. However, they must have reassessed the performance after his later success. As they now rate it at 128, the same as his 2006 and 2008 Master Ratings when racing over further. So Yeats was probably fully effective at 1m4f in his early years.
Incidentally Yeats best 128 is exactly the same as Kyprios is now rated. Septimus was rated 129 for his 13 lengths victory in the 2008 Irish St leger. Even with Yeats still around Septimus was Timeform’s best stayer in both 2007 and 2008. But never allowed to take his stablemate on in the Gold Cup.
Value Is EverythingIf ( when ) he wins this weekend he has won exact same six races on bounce as he did in 2022 , that’s some record .
The last Derby winner to run in the Ascot Gold Cup – Serpentine. Epsom 2020, Ascot 2021.
But not even O’Brien claimed he was the ‘best horse I’ve ever had’. Not so much Serpentine as Duckpond.
He’s also had two notably unsuccessful tries at the Melbourne Cup.
Serpentine in tomorrow in the Metroplitan Handicap at Randwick .TBF to the horse he still gets out on the lead and puts everything in , hes a real battler when they challenge him and wins /places for some decent prizemoney still regularly. 3/16 last up in Group 3 .
Such a shame Serpentine was gelded (for no reason I can see other than making his trainer’s job a bit easier). The breed needs sound and genuine genes to counteract influx of stallions retired as unsound 2 year olds. He wasn’t a great Derby winner but has a good pedigree and there are worse stallions.
“Even with Yeats still around Septimus was Timeform’s best stayer in both 2007 and 2008. But never allowed to take his stablemate on in the Gold Cup.”
They knew GT, they knew.
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