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Fist mate this notion that Kauto was never travelling or jumping in the Gold Cup is a complete myth. His jumping on the first circuit was absolutely fine and he travelled well until Denman injected a ferocious mid race surge (which is backed up by the clock). Kauto then was taken out of his comfort zone and the errors started to occur.
Anyone that doesn’t accept this go back and watch the race again and ignore what Ruby Walsh (a hurt and disappointed man) says.
Grasshopper, Neptune Collonges ran to a similar mark that he ran to in his previous race at Wincanton. Given his conditions he is capable of top class performances he’s not the most reliable of horses admittedly but the talent is there. 2007 Gold Cup was a slowly run affair early on even Beef Or Salmon led for a while, 2008’s was a proper test won by a very good stayer. I have Kauto running to exactly the same mark in both Gold Cups.
Fist mate this notion that Kauto was never travelling or jumping in the Gold Cup is a complete myth. His jumping on the first circuit was absolutely fine and he travelled well until Denman injected a ferocious mid race surge
Grasshopper, Neptune Collonges ran to a similar mark that he ran to in his previous race at Wincanton. Given his conditions he is capable of top class performances
Wincanton?
Won it well but to say that that is a similar performance to being close up in the GC is laughable
All he beat there was Nautnton Brook , whos form has fallen apart
Butlers Cabin has been all over the place and Mon more was back after a year
I dont need to look at the race again to know that Kauto was not travelling as well as he did at Kempton (one example..) He simply wasnt
Anyone that doesn’t accept this go back and watch the race again and ignore what Ruby Walsh (a hurt and disappointed man) says.
that should include the RP race reader too then
There still remained a nagging stamina doubt in some minds, for his Gold Cup win came at the end of a relatively steadily-run race, but it was not lack of stamina that beat him here. Unusually, he never got into any sort of rhythm, and although he was kept more handy than some might have expected, disputing third from an early stage, his jumping was far from fluent,
Although Nicholls has repeatedly told us that KS needs to go left-handed, it’s interesting that his two best runs of this season have been on right-handed tracks. His only win on a l-h track was at Haydock, where he was all out to hold Exotic Dancer. His other starts on l-h tracks have all been defeats.
Anyone that doesn’t accept this go back and watch the race again and ignore what Ruby Walsh (a hurt and disappointed man) says.
that should include the RP race reader too then
There still remained a nagging stamina doubt in some minds, for his Gold Cup win came at the end of a relatively steadily-run race, but it was not lack of stamina that beat him here. Unusually, he never got into any sort of rhythm, and although he was kept more handy than some might have expected, disputing third from an early stage, his jumping was far from fluent,
If you want to quote the Racing Post they give Neptunes Collonges exactly the same mark for the Wincanton and Gold Cup runs. You use the RP when it suits your opinion then omit to use it when it doesn’t. I’ve seen the race must be ten times and regardless of what any analyst says Kauto’s jumping on the first circuit was absolutely fine. RP also give Kauto a 5lb higher rating for this Gold Cup than the 2007 one which he won. Not a bad improvement for a horse that according to them was never really going.
At the end of the day it comes down to personal opinion and subsequent results will no doubt back up. Just a pity the Racing Post team can’t agree on one view because the way they’ve rated the race is completely at odds with their analysis.
I think you will find that they retrospectively changed th RPR for Wincanton following the GC. I might be wrong but theres been some discussion about that
And that in itself indicates that they found the Wincanton race impossible to rate (which would be my line)
I like Neptune a lot but it takes a real leap of imagination to believe that hes the same quality as Kauto. The same as i would feel about any horse easily beaten by Knowhere (ableit receiving a bit of weight) just recently
(The change of boat is not an improvement BTW )
I think you will find that they retrospectively changed th RPR for Wincanton following the GC. I might be wrong but theres been some discussion about that
And that in itself indicates that they found the Wincanton race impossible to rate (which would be my line)
I like Neptune a lot but it takes a real leap of imagination to believe that hes the same quality as Kauto. The same as i would feel about any horse easily beaten by Knowhere (ableit receiving a bit of weight) just recently
(The change of boat is not an improvement BTW )
They didn’t change it from what I can remember, though I wouldn’t swear to it.
Neptune isn’t as good as Kauto, I have him about half a stone below Kauto at peaks.
- Total Posts 17716
Flash
Even if you believe that Neptune Collonges ran the race of his life, Halcon Genelardais has no previous form that suggests he should have been anywhere near Kauto Star, or did all the horses run the race of their lives except KS and ED.
Also, are you really sure about this ferocious mid race surge?
I haven’t seen any sectionals, but it looked to me as though Neptune Collonges set a pretty decent clip from the off?As a Kauto fan I’ve resigned myself to the fact that on the day Denman was simply the better horse. I agree that Kauto didn’t ‘appear’ to be in the same imperious form of his KG win but to state the obvious horses don’t always run to the peak of their ability.
Take nothing away from Denman though. He was excellent on the day having jumped and travelled so well. He’s our GC champion now and the one to beat next year.
I believe Kauto can reverse the form with Denman but it won’t be easy at the GC distance on soft(ish) ground.
All things considered I hope both Kauto and Denman have a nice rest and are raring to go next season.
Flash
Even if you believe that Neptune Collonges ran the race of his life, Halcon Genelardais has no previous form that suggests he should have been anywhere near Kauto Star, or did all the horses run the race of their lives except KS and ED.
Also, are you really sure about this ferocious mid race surge?
I haven’t seen any sectionals, but it looked to me as though Neptune Collonges set a pretty decent clip from the off?Its not difficult to believe that horses ran better in a race that they will clearly be 100% primed for. Also such as the way the race was run it played into certain horses strengths far more than others. Horses that are top class three milers it didn’t really suit it suited horses that are stayers real stamina horses.
Denman injected the pace mid race just as Harry Findlay said he would. Had he done it from the outset he’d have faded late on, no horse however much stamina they possess can go at fult pelt for three and a quarter miles, its an impossibility.
The way races are run have huge affects on results particularly at top class level. All those horses have a good level of ability to begin with and how successful they are is often determined by tactics., I’m sure everyone is aware of this.
This of course is merely my opinion but the race went exactly how Findlay said it would. I saw his interview on RUK and what he said came right.
If you take Denman out of the race, say he didn’t run, would Ruby Walsh have come back in saying Kauto was flat, he wasn’t himself etc having won a second Gold Cup? Would anyone else have subscribed to that view?
Its not difficult to believe that horses ran better in a race that they will clearly be 100% primed for
Halcon would definately have been primed 100% for the Welsh National…not the GC… He may have run just as well as the Chepstow run at Cheltenham but I would doubt if he was any fitter (remembering the skill of his trainer)
He is also very ground deendent too. Would be a hard call to build a soft ground performer’s season around the GC of all races
Its not difficult to believe that horses ran better in a race that they will clearly be 100% primed for
Halcon would definately have been primed 100% for the Welsh National…not the GC… He may have run just as well as the Chepstow run at Cheltenham but I would doubt if he was any fitter (remembering the skill of his trainer)
He is also very ground deendent too. Would be a hard call to build a soft ground performer’s season around the GC of all races
But the conditions of this years Gold Cup allied to the way the race was run would’ve suited him ideally. It clearly did as he ran a big race. The Welsh National is months before the Gold Cup there’s no reason why he couldn’t be primed for both just as Kauto was in 2007 regarding the King George and the Gold Cup.
No reason why he couldnt be primed for both. Never believed that every horse has to be campaigned like Newmill or Sublimity, but i doubt whether he ran any better in the Gc compared with the welsh national (which was a superb effort all the same). That was always his main target
- Total Posts 17716
Flash
Denman injected the pace mid race just as Harry Findlay said he would. Had he done it from the outset he’d have faded late on, no horse however much stamina they possess can go at fult pelt for three and a quarter miles, its an impossibility
So isn’t what you’re saying is that you have no evidence to verify that there was a ferocious mid race surge, other than Harry Findlay said that’s what he’d do?
Flash
Denman injected the pace mid race just as Harry Findlay said he would. Had he done it from the outset he’d have faded late on, no horse however much stamina they possess can go at fult pelt for three and a quarter miles, its an impossibility
So isn’t what you’re saying is that you have no evidence to verify that there was a ferocious mid race surge, other than Harry Findlay said that’s what he’d do?
I don’t have any sectional times no but I seem to remember RUK (I think from memory) doing a feature on it and Denman did indeed inject a very quick mid race pace once he’d jumped to the front.
I admit I don’t personally have any evidence to back that up but I’m sure someone who reads these forums will have ……….. .
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