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"Eclipse First" Frankel wasn’t even extended he past St Nick without Queally moving a muscle he had plenty left in the tank. It doesn’t matter whether its 5f or 1m4f he’s just levels apart.
Quite simply the greatest flat racehorse in my lifetime.
The manner of victory is purely that, when arbitrarily trying to compare the value of that performance to his best performances over a mile, it does not reach those heights.
Can’t be having that. Frankel would have increased the winning distance if ridden closer to the pace if Tom had known for sure he would stay the trip that well. He’s given his main rivals 3 lengths of a start, ambled past them and wasn’t asked a question until just before the furlong marker.
I think you lack some imagination if you think that performance doesn’t compare favourably with anything he’s done over a mile.
That aside a very important actor on whether he goes or the Arc or not must be Sir Henry’s health. I he is well enough to travel to Paris I can’t see them sending Frankel without him being there.
Now that he settles well if he does run he will do exactly the same to them over 12 furlongs as he has done over 8 and 10 fulongs.
The use of "if" when assessing a race is only helpful when it comes to assessing chances next time out. To look at the cold hard facts, today’s performance was simply not as good as his best performances over a mile. You may think that the horse could have won further but he did not. The performance was worth about 135-136 on the OR scale compared to his best of 140.
The use of "if" when assessing a race is only helpful when it comes to assessing chances next time out. To look at the cold hard facts, today’s performance was simply not as good as his best performances over a mile. You may think that the horse could have won further but he did not. The performance was worth about 135-136 on the OR scale compared to his best of 140.
I believe the performance ratings of the previous 1 mile runs were upped because of ease of victory. Don’t see why today’s 1m2f performance should be any different EF.
Value Is EverythingExcellent performance and proves he has matured and settled well. Actually settled far better than Twice Over. Mr Queally was able to let him run his own race whereas Sri Putra and St Nicholas Abbey suffered by laying up with the too frantic pace. The ground was too lively for Planteur.
However it was a marginally better performance than the Sussex and some way below the heights of his Queen Anne/2011 Sussex performances.
A mile is his optimum trip.
Intrigued to know how you can say so authoritatively that 1M is his optimum trip based on today’s saunter?
Excellent performance and proves he has matured and settled well. Actually settled far better than Twice Over. Mr Queally was able to let him run his own race whereas Sri Putra and St Nicholas Abbey suffered by laying up with the too frantic pace. The ground was too lively for Planteur.
However it was a marginally better performance than the Sussex and some way below the heights of his Queen Anne/2011 Sussex performances.
A mile is his optimum trip.
Intrigued to know how you can say so authoritatively that 1M is his optimum trip based on today’s saunter?
A very logical and deeply well informed assertion was made on this forum by EF a few weeks back, the conclusion of which was based on EF’s expert knowledge of breeding and own visual evidence of Frankel and his dam compared with Galileo – basically in a nutshell Frankel had inherited more of his dam’s genes than his sire, hence his optimum trip is a mile and he could even excel at shorter trips (forgive me if I am misrepresenting you EF but I think that was basically it?).
Personally I think the theory was disproven this afternoon at York in no uncertain terms.
RPR have accorded Frankel’s Juddmonte International demolition job a provisional rating of 142 which actually equals his Queen Anne saunter, and exceeds the 2011 Sussex Stakes win by 5lbs. I am not saying RPR are to be completely trusted but they cannot be that far off the mark? It will be interesting to see what Timeform come up with.
Excellent performance and proves he has matured and settled well. Actually settled far better than Twice Over. Mr Queally was able to let him run his own race whereas Sri Putra and St Nicholas Abbey suffered by laying up with the too frantic pace. The ground was too lively for Planteur.
However it was a marginally better performance than the Sussex and some way below the heights of his Queen Anne/2011 Sussex performances.
A mile is his optimum trip.
Intrigued to know how you can say so authoritatively that 1M is his optimum trip based on today’s saunter?
By the logical deduction that his trainer, who has held a licence for over 40 years and has forgotten more about training racehorses than anyone on here will ever know, would not run the best horse he has ever trained over the wrong trip for over a season.
The use of "if" when assessing a race is only helpful when it comes to assessing chances next time out. To look at the cold hard facts, today’s performance was simply not as good as his best performances over a mile. You may think that the horse could have won further but he did not. The performance was worth about 135-136 on the OR scale compared to his best of 140.
Blimey you don’t half come out with some rubbish EF. One of life’s balloon bursters. What on earth are you taling about? He pulverised them and he was on the bridle til inside the two! He won by 7 lengths!!! His RPR is the same as the QA.
Anyone with eyes in their head could see what happened today.
To be there was to be part of something very special. Seeing Henry broke my heart but I am so glad he was able to be there for that. There are not enough superlatives to do justice this horse.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Monmouth Park in NJ was a slop rink when GW died. Far removed from the beautiful track at Santa Anita.
With some horses, it ain’t what you do it’s the way that you do it.
I was there today. TQ took 4 furlongs to pull him up and when he turned round he looked as though he was on his way to the start.
His natural speed and increasing maturity and strength brought him into the race, from well off a fast pace, without his jockey moving. The most effective gear change I’ve ever seen then put the race to bed in what has become his signature move.
To be trying to draw a dry, ratings-based measure of the merit of such a performance is like taking a theodolyte to the Taj Mahal
Joe
Excellent performance and proves he has matured and settled well. Actually settled far better than Twice Over. Mr Queally was able to let him run his own race whereas Sri Putra and St Nicholas Abbey suffered by laying up with the too frantic pace. The ground was too lively for Planteur.
However it was a marginally better performance than the Sussex and some way below the heights of his Queen Anne/2011 Sussex performances.
A mile is his optimum trip.
Intrigued to know how you can say so authoritatively that 1M is his optimum trip based on today’s saunter?
By the logical deduction that his trainer, who has held a licence for over 40 years and has forgotten more about training racehorses than anyone on here will ever know, would not run the best horse he has ever trained over the wrong trip for over a season.
So your assertion that Frankel is better at 1m than 1m2f is nothing to do with what actually happened on the racecourse then Eclipse?
Come off it girl. I agreed with you beforehand. I didn’t believe Frankel would be as good at 1m2f as he is at 1m. But he didn’t just scramble home, it was 7 lengths with only one love tap to keep him going. Have to admit I (we) were wrong.
Value Is EverythingBy the logical deduction that his trainer, who has held a licence for over 40 years and has forgotten more about training racehorses than anyone on here will ever know, would not run the best horse he has ever trained over the wrong trip for over a season.
Cecil did not run Frankel over "the wrong trip" for over a season. An example of a horse being run over the wrong trip is Ajdal, and Stoute freely admits he got that one very badly wrong.
Frankel was campaigned at a trip over which he was able to completely dominate. That does not make it the wrong trip. He simply refrained from trying the horse over further until now, and had his reasons for doing so.
Nick Luck speculated this evening that the apparent prime objective of preserving the unbeaten record may have been linked to the horse representing the pinnacle of Cecil’s and Abdullah’s lifetimes’ work, and that they want his record to remain unblemished.
It is a reasonable motivation if true, but does not change the fact that the horse has proven himself at 10f today (with the strong indication 12f is also well within his compass) and that one can only guess what might have been had connections upped him in trip a lot earlier – on a line through Farhh he would almost certainly have won the Eclipse and the King George.
On the reverse angle slow motion on C4 his coat looked dry as he cruised past SNA, whose own coat was soaked, giving some measure of the lack of comparative exertion required by Frankel during the race.
I remember being surprised at Goodwood to see how relaxed he was in the winner’s enclosure. I have seen horses close up after work at Newmarket and he genuinely looked as if he had put in less effort in winning a Group 1 race than most horses do on the morning gallops.
It seems inconceivable that connections will keep him in training next year, but who knows – maybe today’s revelation might bring about a change of heart. Imagine what he could achieve with an exclusively 10-12f campaign.
So your assertion that Frankel is better at 1m than 1m2f is nothing to do with what actually happened on the racecourse then Eclipse?
Come off it girl. I agreed with you beforehand. I didn’t believe Frankel would be as good at 1m2f as he is at 1m. But he didn’t just scramble home, it was 7 lengths with only one love tap to keep him going. Have to admit I (we) were wrong.
Ginger, I honestly do not think it was as weighty a performance as his best efforts over a mile. 7 lengths over Farhh is not as good as 5 over Excelebration at Newbury or 5 over Canford Cliffs at Goodwood.
Put it this way, if he were dropped back to a mile for the Moulin or QEII (although I suspect his next appearance will be somewhat influenced by the sadly waning health of his trainer) then he could produce even better than he has done thus far.
A great horse has no distance but it will certainly have a best distance.Frankel wasn’t ready to go further than a mile until he learnt to settle better Ivanjica. Had connections run the horse at 1m2f+ before today it may well have had a detrimental effect, both on the day (pulling hard) and in his future career. ie Once pulling hard once a horse may well do so again, learning bad tricks. And if doing so once and beaten once, then he’s never seen at the trip again.
Am sure Sir Henry would’ve liked to up Frankel before now, but was cautious. Caution that seems to have paid dividends.
Value Is EverythingInterestingly according to Graham Cunningham (RUK) Teddy Beckett said "There’s a race called the Prix De l’Arc de Triomphe. He’s not entered in it yet". When asked about the BC he said "It’s Bobby’s (Frankel’s) hometown, and emotional ties would be too fantastic, but its dirt. On pro-ride we would have been there".
I hope he takes in the Arc, but I have gone off the idea of the BC Classic. When you consider poor old George Washington’s fate on the dirt, you would hate to think anything would happen to this extraordinary racehorse prior to beginning his happy retirement.
First of all, his action and running style fits dirt quite well. He’d win in a romp, there’s nobody really to challenge him here. Ron The Greek, Fort Larned, Paynter, Nates Mineshaft et al. are just plain slow. I would say just put him in the BC Turf if the dirt is a concern, but Little Mike
might
challenge him as a front-runner.
Second, George Washington’s death was not caused by dirt. Considering he was an older stallion who had no business being brought back to the races, he could’ve broken down in the BC Turf too. There’s no comparison between him and a fit, healthy 4yo with an excellent trainer.
Ginger, I honestly do not think it was as weighty a performance as his best efforts over a mile. 7 lengths over Farhh is not as good as 5 over Excelebration at Newbury or 5 over Canford Cliffs at Goodwood.
Put it this way, if he were dropped back to a mile for the Moulin or QEII (although I suspect his next appearance will be somewhat influenced by the sadly waning health of his trainer) then he could produce even better than he has done thus far.
A great horse has no distance but it will certainly have a best distance.Fair enough Eclipse if that is your opinion.
In fact, to the pound you may be right EF. Mile form just might be 1 or at a push 2 lbs better than the International run. But Frankel has had many more runs at a mile than he has at the longer distance. To put up a performance as good as most (if not all) of his mile form at the first attempt… In my opinion suggests he’s equally effective at this trip.
I do think your opinion of Farhh should be revised. May have only "won" a handicap up to now. But was only 1/2 a length behind Nathaniel. Had Frankel beaten Nathaniel by 1/2 a length less than he did Farhh today, would you still be as "negative"? Sorry, "negative" is not the word as you’re hardly that, but you know what I mean Eclipse. When you see what Nathaniel has done in his two runs this season, let alone last. St Nicholas Abbey won the Coronation Cup easily and chased home Danedream and Nathaniel at Ascot when getting a poor ride.
Value Is EverythingFrankel wasn’t ready to go further than a mile until he learnt to settle better Ivanjica. Had connections run the horse at 1m2f+ before today it may well have had a detrimental effect, both on the day (pulling hard) and in his future career. ie Once pulling hard once a horse may well do so again, learning bad tricks. And if doing so once and beaten once, then he’s never seen at the trip again.
Am sure Sir Henry would’ve liked to up Frankel before now, but was cautious. Caution that seems to have paid dividends.
I don’t agree with your view. I have debated this at length and once again point to the St James’s Palace Stakes where proof was provided the horse could be settled behind a number of horses (in 5th), and would have remained there, settling perfectly, had Queally not kicked for home when he did. Immediately after the race the BBC commentary team queried Queally’s ride, suggesting that by holding on to him longer he would have won more impressively (it was suggested the crown of the bend, which Cecil later confirmed had been the instructions to Queally, ie. the same as the Royal Lodge).
Cecil made it very obvious in post race interviews that the race had taught him a lot: "he was very, very settled","he had to ask him to take it up", "he was getting idle at the end which means I can ride a normal race on him", "I can settle him in now and I don’t have to make so much use of him". The final quote was the most telling, and he even went on to mention the Juddmonte International (2011) as a possible target.
Now one can only guess why Frankel was not aimed at the Juddmonte International in 2011, but his subsequent run in the Sussex Stakes merely confirmed the Royal Ascot evidence that the horse was very tactically adaptable, being asked to make all and settling perfectly on the front end.
Whilst you can speculate about how a run in the Derby might have panned out, that is basically your opinion which is unsupported by the visual evidence of the St James’s Palace Stakes. You may be of the opinion that the slower pace of the opening stages of a Derby would have led to him pulling his chances away, but who is to say his vastly superior ability and now proven stamina reserves would not have overcome this?
Few expected Frankel to be dropped out today in the manner he was, his jockey apparently deliberately missing a beat as the gates opened. When the question was asked of him, ie. could he settle behind horses over a longer trip without "racing too freely" he did so perfectly. Given the aforementioned comments from his trainer over a year ago I think it is clear he could have been stepped up in trip at least by August 2011 if not earlier, however the Juddmonte International was already an obvious target for Midday and Twice Over so it was decided to keep Frankel to a mile in order to provide his two older stable companions with a 10f campaign that took in the York race and the Champion Stakes.
As events unfolded this year, one can understand them not wanting Frankel to be asked to have his first test over 10f at Ascot or Sandown, where the emphasis is far more on stamina than York. Now of course they know stamina is not an issue (as his breeding had always suggested it wouldn’t be) the sky really would be the limit, however they have run out of time somewhat, unless of course a change of heart occurs. Though to be fair I imagine that maybe unlikely given Sir Henry’s obvious poor health. I am sure he wants to see his masterpiece end his career with the unbeaten record secure.
Interestingly according to Graham Cunningham (RUK) Teddy Beckett said "There’s a race called the Prix De l’Arc de Triomphe. He’s not entered in it yet". When asked about the BC he said "It’s Bobby’s (Frankel’s) hometown, and emotional ties would be too fantastic, but its dirt. On pro-ride we would have been there".
I hope he takes in the Arc, but I have gone off the idea of the BC Classic. When you consider poor old George Washington’s fate on the dirt, you would hate to think anything would happen to this extraordinary racehorse prior to beginning his happy retirement.
First of all, his action and running style fits dirt quite well. He’d win in a romp, there’s nobody really to challenge him here. Ron The Greek, Fort Larned, Paynter, Nates Mineshaft et al. are just plain slow. I would say just put him in the BC Turf if the dirt is a concern, but Little Mike
might
challenge him as a front-runner.
Second, George Washington’s death was not caused by dirt. Considering he was an older stallion who had no business being brought back to the races, he could’ve broken down in the BC Turf too. There’s no comparison between him and a fit, healthy 4yo with an excellent trainer.
I am sure the experience of Dancing Brave in the 1986 BC Turf is not lost on Frankel’s connections, when he was supposed to just turn up and bully a bunch of supposed no-hopers. I imagine the Prince and his team have always regretted not retiring Dancing Brave on a high.
Somehow winning the BC Turf won’t have the same kudos as winning an Arc for Frankel, which is probably why the only race they would even consider is the Classic. A lot can go wrong between here and California so I can understand the caution being exercised.
As regards the comments about George Washington, it seems strange to suggest Coolmore would send an unfit horse to a BC Classic. You say he was an "older stallion". He was a 4-y-o, the same age as Frankel. Whilst he may not have achieved the same level of form as say his Guineas or QEII’s following his return from abortive stallion duties, he ran to a consistent level of form in the Queen Anne and Moulin, and had every chance in the Eclipse beaten only a head by the Derby winner (conceding him 11lbs).
It strikes me as churlish to suggest he was no longer capable of performing to a high level, and there is no reason why he could not have improved as a 5 and 6-y-o in the way Frankel’s stablemate Twice Over has.
Whilst it is impossible to be equivocal about the cause of George Washington’s sad death, I think a lot of onlookers concluded the state of the track did not help, with the muddied slop allowing horses to penetrate to the hard surface below. Whatever, it would seem that the Abdullah camp are not prepared to risk their horse on dirt but would be fine with pro-ride.
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