- This topic has 49 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 4 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
You’ve picked me up slightly wrong.
othing would be better than him not coming off the bridle but if it came to a ding dong battle before the last I just feel he’d still be able to quicken enough and more than hold his own in a head to head.
I just got the impression had the race been 1/2 furlong further he’d have put a lot more distance between himself and the 2nd or if BG had gone sooner he’d have got into full stride and won further.
He’s certainly no son of Harchibald which is always the worry with good travellers.
I agree it’s not very sensible to be using Menorah or other strict interpretations of form.
The thing about true Champion Hurdle horses is something always has to finish behind them as they are ridden to beat what’s in front of them on the day.
Overturn was beaten only 4 lengths today but Grandouet was ridden specifically to beat him simply because he was there.
Stick another couple of really good horses in that same race and it becomes a totally different affair. You could bet if they both finished in front of Overturn the pace would have been different and most likely Grandouet would still have travelled as well, won and I suspect Overturn would have been beaten much further as would have Menorah.
I’d be very surprised if the likes of Overturn gets within 10 lengths of Grandouet in the Champion Hurdle he simply doesn’t have the equipment to adapt that the Henderson horse has and today’s from will be meaningless.
Fair enough HGM. I don’t know if you saw the interview with BG but I got the very strong impression that he feels the horse wants a serious hold-up ride, even after experiencing today how well the horse ran on.
I suspect that if the horse travels as well as he hopes, he’ll try and hold on to him till well after the last in CH.
Fair enough HGM. I don’t know if you saw the interview with BG but I got the very strong impression that he feels the horse wants a serious hold-up ride, even after experiencing today how well the horse ran on.
I suspect that if the horse travels as well as he hopes, he’ll try and hold on to him till well after the last in CH.
Exactly what I thought following the interview with him, don’t know if agree exactly with what he was saying, but I really respect him as a jockey, and if he thinks that’s what should be done, who am I to question him?
Shaping up to be a really exciting Champion Hurdle (aren’t they always?).
I heard last year Zarkander was making noises on the gallops with breathing problems. An oporation needs to be successful for him to recapture Triumph form, let alone improve on it.
Value Is EverythingThe way Grandouet jumped the second last hurdle gave me a lot of confidence, it could have been Becher’s Brook and he would’ve been fine.
Deffo the biggest challenger to Hurricane unless something else comes out of the woodwork. Still think a 100% Hurricane won’t be beaten, though.
Menorah will win big races over fences IMHO.
Zip
Fair enough HGM. I don’t know if you saw the interview with BG but I got the very strong impression that he feels the horse wants a serious hold-up ride, even after experiencing today how well the horse ran on.
I suspect that if the horse travels as well as he hopes, he’ll try and hold on to him till well after the last in CH.
That’s what I can’t understand about jockeys they all think they know better than me
Philip Hobbs training of Menorah really begs the question.
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT MAN DOING??
Philip Hobbs training of Menorah really begs the question.
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT MAN DOING??
How do you think you know what has gone on with Menorah Ruby?
With Peddlers Cross and Al Ferof looking above average Arkle candidates. Now Sprinter Sacre joining them. And Hurricane Fly under a cloud. If the favourite doesn’t get there, the Champion looks up for grabs…
Why shouldn’t he have a go at the International / give him a go over hurdles?
Value Is EverythingMenorah jumped great until he fell on his chasing debut.
Menorah could not even beat Oscar Whiskey never mind Thousand Stars(improving). Hurricane Fly will beat him even further than last year if he was to go down that route.
Why would you run a horse like Menorah after a fall that he had at Top Weight in a handicap over Hurdles??. Why?? I don’t understand what has to be gained from that. In fact that imo will have finished the horse for the year.
The same craic with Wishful Thinking setting what can only be described as a suicidal pace last weekend and ended up nearly choking near the end.
Hobbs/Johnson really are making a mess of the Wheatley’s Horses.
Menorah jumped great until he fell on his chasing debut.
Menorah could not even beat Oscar Whiskey never mind Thousand Stars(improving). Hurricane Fly will beat him even further than last year if he was to go down that route.
Why would you run a horse like Menorah after a fall that he had at Top Weight in a handicap over Hurdles??. Why?? I don’t understand what has to be gained from that. In fact that imo will have finished the horse for the year.
The same craic with Wishful Thinking setting what can only be described as a suicidal pace last weekend and ended up nearly choking near the end.
Hobbs/Johnson really are making a mess of the Wheatley’s Horses.
Ruby,
Up until the Champion, Menorah was improving fast. If (as many people believe/ed) he was below form there; he could have continued the improvement this year and been a Champion contender. We all expect Hurricane Fly to beat Menorah again Ruby, if the Irish horse turns up in good form. But that is no "given". Hence why Hobbs must have thought it worth a go putting Menorah in the International; a race he won last year. Fair enough the horse proved not good enough, but nobody knew that beforehand. Not as if he started an outsider, far from it, joint favourite in fact.The International isn’t a "handicap" Ruby. Menorah only had a 4 lb penalty in a conditions event.
Agree with you about Wishful Thinking, Johnson has gone off too quickly on three of his last five starts on the horse.
Value Is EverythingMenorah jumped great until he fell on his chasing debut.
Menorah could not even beat Oscar Whiskey never mind Thousand Stars(improving). Hurricane Fly will beat him even further than last year if he was to go down that route.
Why would you run a horse like Menorah after a fall that he had at Top Weight in a handicap over Hurdles??. Why?? I don’t understand what has to be gained from that. In fact that imo will have finished the horse for the year.
The same craic with Wishful Thinking setting what can only be described as a suicidal pace last weekend and ended up nearly choking near the end.
Hobbs/Johnson really are making a mess of the Wheatley’s Horses.
Ruby,
Up until the Champion, Menorah was improving fast. If (as many people believe/ed) he was below form there; he could have continued the improvement this year and been a Champion contender. We all expect Hurricane Fly to beat Menorah again Ruby, if the Irish horse turns up in good form. But that is no "given". Hence why Hobbs must have thought it worth a go putting Menorah in the International; a race he won last year. Fair enough the horse proved not good enough, but nobody knew that beforehand. Not as if he started an outsider, far from it, joint favourite in fact.The International isn’t a "handicap" Ruby. Menorah only had a 4 lb penalty in a conditions event.
Agree with you about Wishful Thinking, Johnson has gone off too quickly on three of his last five starts on the horse.
I was a big fan of Menorah as a novice but I think there is a chance that he is not below form at present but rather he is overated on his overall form. Beating Bothy giving lots of weight in the Greatwood was a fine effort but not, on its own, a sign of his top class credentials.
Next he won the International (2010) and much of the positive impression was due to a camera angle were he impressively sluiced between and away from Cue Card and Silviano Conti. he left them standing like 3 mile chasers…well maybe thats just what they were and his comparitive speed was unlikely to be repeated against proper 16f G1 horses.
He didnt run again until the Champion (so we had no chance to gauge his worth further) when he was readily disposed of. The front 4 in that race have proven themselves as very good horses, Menorah is just not as good as them, I now think.So my retrospective of Menorah would now be…very good novice chase prospect in a a stellar year for novice chasers + not in the front rank of 2 mile hurdlers.
Finally, I don’t think there is anything wrong with him physicallySome strange decisions from the Hobbs yard in recent times.
Quinz in the National was unbelievably bad.
As Hobbs said at the time, he’d have liked another year before taking Quinz to the National. But he’d never have a handicap mark as good. If I remember rightly, Quinz was either top or second top rated in Timeform that day. Although they had reservations on his experience and jumping ability.
You can’t blame Hobbs for running Quinz.
Value Is EverythingAnyone who was around during the build up to the Champion Hurdle last season will know I was very uncomplimentary about Menorah from day 1.
The fact Jonjo said Get me Out of Here was well below CH class and he all but beat him in the Supreme had some influence on that but when he beat Cue Card to me it was clear he had been massively flattered.
When I saw he was going to run again in the International I was very surprised until I realised it was the same race he had won the year before.
I never not even for one millisecond considered him a danger and I am absolutely mazed he started as short as he did. In fact had you asked my 5 mins after the race where he finished and what price he was I couldn’t have told you. He was a total nonentity to me.
I have no idea who’s crazy idea it was to go back to hurdling and unless you have 2 feet in the yard neither does anyone else on here and can’t be sure Philip Hobbs was behind it. Owners get what they want at the end of the day and trainers will very seldom admit they disagree in public because it makes the stupid owner look stupid.
Funny thing is I was really impressed by Menorah over fences and would even consider betting him for the Arkle if it weren’t for Sprinter Sacre.
I reckon Menorah will do exceptionally well over fences and outdo anything he ever did over hurdles.
If you’ve nothing better to do, here’s an extract from my Champion Hurdle preview published in late February 2011
Menorah 5/1
After some spirited debate on the Betfair forum, I spent time examining Menorah’s key races in detail.
The more I delve into this horse’s form, the more fascinating I find him. For those who can’t be bothered reading this lengthy analysis of Menorah’s last four races, here’s my summary view: Menorah has a fine engine but the torque is more effective during a race than towards the end. He’s not confident at his hurdles and is probably slightly quirky, a characteristic which might get worse rather than better.
He’s benefited from some fine tactical rides by Johnson but would probably improve for a rider who could instil more confidence in him at his hurdles. He will go close in the Champion Hurdle, but will be beaten by something with a bit more heart, experience and confidence.
Stan James Hurdle, December 11th 2010
1st – SC flattens the hurdle, Menorah runs through the gap
2nd – Menorah, slightly awkward
3rd – Nods slightly, not a good jumping shape
4th – Am happy to give him the benefit of the doubt here. On CH4 he looked like he brought down the panel with his hind legs; on RUK it looks like the horse to his right knocks it out with its front legs. Cattermole attributes the mistake to Menorah but I won’t argue the point.
5th – jumps fluently
6th – jumps OK
7th – clips the top with front legs but OK
8th – jumps well
The visual impression, live, was that he sliced through his three main opponents on the run to the last. I believe now he hit top gear, and got a wonderful gap, at precisely the right time, just as the other three reached their optimum speed (they stayed abreast of each other for quite some time afterwards, enhancing the appearance of Menorah’s acceleration, as well as the impression they had little more to give).
As to his size/appearance, he is not small, as such, actually quite tall, but narrowish and a bit gangly (which might contribute to his numerous awkward jumps) and I think that if he grows right into his frame he will be a very fine specimen.
Greatwood Hurdle, November 14th 2010
1st – knocks the panel out with hind legs, awkward
2nd – skewed in the air, but clean enough
3rd – Looks like he clips the top though viewing angle unclear
4th – fluent
5th – OK, but slight cat jump (almost lands on all four feet)
6th – flattens panel, barely takes off
7th – OK
8th – OK, stumbles after last but recovers really well
Throughout, he raced 6 horses wide of the runner-up conceding significant ground though Hobbs said Johnson had walked the course and the ground was better on that route.
Aintree, 9th April 2010
1st – awkward head carriage and shape, hangs slightly on approach
2nd – clean jump despite a swerve on the approach
3rd – bad viewing angle, but head carriage looked suspect once more
4th – fluent
5th – superb jump
6th – OK but hangs slightly
7th – cat jump, hits panel
8th – OK
9th – OK
He must have traded very short coming away from the last, but he gives in quite tamely to a hard driven General Miller. This might be a hangover from his Supreme victory but he’d travelled strongly throughout, his action looking well suited to track and ground; he showed no obvious signs of being jaded, though I cannot discount the possibility he was feeling the effects of Cheltenham. This race was run at a pretty good gallop and, for me, it strengthened my suspicion that he might not quite see a race out at full championship pace.
Supreme Novices, 16th March
1st – OK
2nd – slight cat jump
3rd – OK, but runs around on approach
4th – OK but runs around on approach
5th – fluent
6th – cocks his head left and clips top with front legs
7th – jinks very noticeably both left and right (commentators blame the horse alongside him for being slightly wayward but his movement is nothing compared to Menorah’s, and it adds to my belief that Menorah is very nervous on his approach to hurdles)
8th – jinks again on approach though not so badly
The time of the race is described by Steve Mellish as "bang on good ground time" and for me the race is won by Johnson kicking for home on the turn in and getting first run on Get me out of Here who would very likely have won in another fifty yards, cutting Menorah down in much the same style as GM was to do at Aintree.
The RUK team are consistently effusive in their praise of Menorah’s jumping, but that is a lazy assumption based on the occasional fine leap he puts in. The reality, imo, is that the horse seems less than confident, often awkward in the few strides before he jumps as though not quite knowing how to put himself right, leading to what looks like a degree of panic, causing him to hang, carry his head high and guess a bit.
On the positive side, it says an awful lot for his engine that he has achieved his current level with such an inconsistent and generally poor technique. Unfortunately, it significantly increases the chances of a fall.
He travels very well in his races yet sometimes gives the impression that he slightly runs in snatches – not in the conventional way – being pushed along for a furlong or so – but more in a manner that he seems to drift on and off the bridle within a dozen strides or so.
It’s beyond question that Menorah has considerable talent, and it might well be that he will learn to travel more smoothly (thus conserving energy for the finish), and jump with greater confidence.
But if Hobbs sticks to his plan ("I’m 85% certain he won’t run again before Cheltenham"), then he will deprive the horse of much needed experience and it could well cost him the big race.
On the balance of what I’ve seen, I think he will almost certainly travel better, less ‘snatchy’ in a fast-run CH, but I doubt his hurdling will improve for it and a race-losing error at a critical point is a real possibility, imo. The better the ground, the stronger the chance that something will go past him on the run to the line. Softish ground will add considerably to his chances by blunting the speed of Binocular. In a battle with the tenacious Peddlers Cross, I doubt he’ll have the heart to beat Mr McCain’s horse.
In conclusion, given his form (unproven against hardened CH performers), his hurdling technique, the quirks I suspect he has, I consider him poor value but I am looking forward with excitement to see just how high he can go in this sphere.
Menorah finished 5th in CH beaten just under 10L having hit 4 out and hit the last.
Never did get why they switched back, he was definitely flattered by that monkey of a thing Cue Card stopping like someone had caught him by the tail last year but he’s still a better than average horse.
So it doesn’t matter that Sprinter Sacre did exactly the same thing in the Supreme then?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.