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I guess the rather wishy washy but nevertheless useful rule here is to do whatever both owner & trainer are happy with. Worst case scenario is having an owner kept out of things when he would rather be getting involved but keeping that wish to himself.
Some trainers would welcome the help/suggestions, others would be less inclined to even listen. Selection of the "right" trainer for you will depend on a variety of issues – track record, training location, methods, profile, cost etc and so why should this consideration (degree of owner involvement) not be another factor?
In my case (managing syndicated horses mainly trained by Ferdy Murphy) the training of te horses is 100% FMs responsibility and role. Communication of the progress and status of that training to me on a regular and comprehensive basis is expected and given.
Training the horses to do themselves justice is a huge part of the job but so is "placing" them in races to maximise their chances. That can be a collaborative effort. Regular discussion of a horse’s well being, fitness, ability and likely requirements (track type, ground) etc should mean that targets can be identified by owner or trainer (using the appropriate Weatherbys resources that AP mentions).
In our case, the basic rule is that we discuss every entry and I feel completely able to suggest an entry or to query one that I do not understand. Final decision, I always leave to FM but I never feel that an entry or declaration is made/not made without my view being known & considered. The same is true of jockey bookings though I willingly take less of an active role in that sphere.
The issue of multiple entries is a difficult one – we have done a bit of that but it is usually early season in novice hurdles where the fear of being balloted out demands several entries (though I cannot ever remember entering 7 in a week without using one of them!!)
The other thing to consider in this matter is that things do change. When I placed my first horse with Ferdy many years ago I would never have dreamt of suggesting an entry to him whereas now, around 20 horses and many races later, I feel more confident and able to do so.
In conclusion, if the relationship with your trainer is a good one in terms of communication then it should be entirely possible to adopt a completely passive, a completely active or indeed a collaborative role regarding entries etc.
Horse for courses or trainers for owners!
From the other side of the coin; the yard I worked in had had fourty horses.
The boss only rang two or three main owners who had multiple horses. The other owners if they didn’t ring him; they wouldn’t know if the horse was dead or alive week to week.
Anyway, one owner in particular really stands out. He had this really average yak and everytime he called (every two weeks on a Monday) would be 8.30am when all the team congregated in the tack room.
"Has Choco got any entries this week" he would ask
The boss would put the mobile on mute….and then shout
"Oi you, run over to the office and get the programme book pronto"
With the programme book armed – he’d quickly find a race where-ever the horsebox was going….
"It’s funny you should ring today because I was going to ring you, a little race looks suitable at Warwick on Sunday"
The owner would reply "Ah that’s magic, Maggie will be thrilled"
Horse hadn’t left his box in three months….
The owner and his family were so nice, they were always the first to pay a training bill, no hassle whatsoever.
The reason he bought this useless yak – he was the last of the juveniles in the yard to be sold. The owner popped down one morning to watch work and we "staged" this workout for the unsold juvenile to resemble Shergar. He promptly bought him.
My advice take as active role as you possibly can in the horses career. The racingadmin.co.uk webpage enables you to track entries/decs, search for fixtures and races, check for handicap marks. The resources have been produced for a reason, why not use them?
If a yard consists of 50 horses, unless yours is the flagbearer, it’s not always going to be at the forefront of the trainers mind.
Some trainers train for winners – others train per mile (!)
Having had first hand experience of both owners and training, I guess I should comment!
Firstly, I would just like to say Network Racing were an excellent bunch of owners to deal with!
I do appreciate that many owners do get frustrated by their trainers not running when they want to or in the wrong races but I would hope that I had a good enough relationship with that owner to work with them to decide what is best for both owner and horse. I was very concientious to discover which track suited each horse best and also the right jockey. For instance – I latterly used Adam Kirby for Kahlua Bear who was a bit idle but quite a big horse who needed someone to get stuck into him. When Adam was unable to ride one day, I stuck on Adrian McCarthy who got on really well with Taj (she was small as was he!) and when KBear came into straight, Adrian said he gave him a slap and he thought the horse didn’t like it – but the horse was a great one for taking the p*ss and Adam got him right first time. SO I would hope to be able to pick the right jockey although obviously if an owner didn’t like a particular jockey then I wouldn’t use them on their horse out of respect.
I don’t feel that owners should enter the horse as they are not there in charge of the training seeing the horses welbeing and when he is ready to run. Sure I have no problem in arranging for horses to run at particular tracks/meeting – injuries/fitness/ground depending but if I was "told" by an owner that the horse was running in such and such a race next week then I would have a problem with it. If as an owner you feel you are better at doing the entries than the trainer, then perhaps you should go off, spend £2100 on the training modules and set yourself up. I wouldn’t dictate to a trained plumber/car mechanic/accountant etc how to do their job and I wouldn’t expect an owner to do the same. It can be very hard finding the right race for the horse at the right time despite going through the Programme book/online months in advance.
It should be a case of good honest communication between trainer and owner and left at that.
If as an owner you feel you are better at doing the entries than the trainer, then perhaps you should go off, spend £2100 on the training modules and set yourself up. I wouldn’t dictate to a trained plumber/car mechanic/accountant etc how to do their job and I wouldn’t expect an owner to do the same. It can be very hard finding the right race for the horse at the right time despite going through the Programme book/online months in advance.
The clue to a trainer’s job description is in the title. A trainer is employed by an owner to produce a horse fit and well to run to the best of its ability for the owner. It’s entirely up to the owner where and when a horse runs.
I’m not sure why you think that an owner who wants to do the entries himself is telling a trainer how to do their job. Once an owner has been told by the trainer which course conditions suit the horse then the act of doing the entries is a purely administrative exercise.
It may very well be the case that a trainer disagrees with an owner’s choice of race but there’s an old saying that the customer is always right and in this context the owner is the customer.
If as an owner you feel you are better at doing the entries than the trainer, then perhaps you should go off, spend £2100 on the training modules and set yourself up. I wouldn’t dictate to a trained plumber/car mechanic/accountant etc how to do their job and I wouldn’t expect an owner to do the same. It can be very hard finding the right race for the horse at the right time despite going through the Programme book/online months in advance.
The clue to a trainer’s job description is in the title. A trainer is employed by an owner to produce a horse fit and well to run to the best of its ability for the owner. It’s entirely up to the owner where and when a horse runs.
I’m not sure why you think that an owner who wants to do the entries himself is telling a trainer how to do their job. Once an owner has been told by the trainer which course conditions suit the horse then the act of doing the entries is a purely administrative exercise.
It may very well be the case that a trainer disagrees with an owner’s choice of race but there’s an old saying that the customer is always right and in this context the owner is the customer.
I think you are forgetting that the majority of owners know next to nothing about racing, and even less about horses.
I think you are forgetting that the majority of owners know next to nothing about racing, and even less about horses.
I’m certainly not forgetting that. The majority of the members of the syndicate I run would fall into that category.
What I was taking issue with was the assumption implicit in the section I quoted (which IMHO smacked of an arrogance trainers need to move away from if they are to prosper in the current economic environment) that owners should ‘know their place’. The owner pays the bills and therefore has an absolute right to dictate (if he or she wishes) where the horse runs.
The fact that the owner may demand that the horse is run under totally unsuitable conditions is beside the point.
Racehorse ownership is as close to burning money as you can get without actually setting light to a wad of notes. To be told that you should just hand that money over without having the right to choose where the horse runs is a bit much IMHO.
I’m reminded of a quote from Mercy Rimmell along the lines of "the less the owners interfered the luckier they were".
Colin
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The day you own a horse and are told by your trainer to keep your friggin nose out of it then you are with the right trainer.
A trainer takes many things into consideration when placing a horse.
To be honest any first time owner who thinks he can buy a horse then start telling the trainer where to run him will very likely be asked if they wanted to train it themself in a friendly way……which is much the same as keep your friggin nose out of it
I disagree Aristo. I am not an owner and perhaps I dont know enough to pass comment but if a trainer dictated to me I’d move my horse. Surely the relationship of owner/trainer should be about compromise. Using the owners enthusiasm and interest together with the trainers eperience and know how. I’d leave "the training" of the beast to the trainer but see no reason why I couldn’t consult and agree with the trainer on which race to go for. And in todays climate, when attracting new owners is not easy, trainers need to become more people friendly.
Mate when you own a horse if you are any sort of decent guy you become one of the lads. Friends is the name of the game and it’s not a case of dictating to you as such.
The thing is, if you are not there on a daily basis and have an excellent knowledge of what is happening in other yards then how can you possibly disagree with a trainers advice? Sure you can make suggestions but if you want to be a successful owner you better damn listen to what he has to say.
Most of what he knows comes from the stable jockey and work riders. Most owners aren’t close enough to the staff to know what they think and looking through entries you wouldn’t have a clue if such and such was going to run or not. They have access to info you don’t and without it you could miss an opportunity or end up taking on horses you are unlikely to beat.
That’s just a slight insight to what it’s like being an owner and as I have owned several I can assure you having two ears and own mouth and using them per ratio is the best way forward when you own a horse.
Read what Colin/Seabird says and take heed as he has hit the nail righton thehead.spoken.
The quote from Mercy Rimell is presumably 25 years old. Hopefully a few attitudes have changed since then.
………………oh, at least that, Stilvi, but it probably still has some significance these days.
After all, very few owners have the knowledge or shrewdness (if I can use that word, Alan
) of apracing.Colin
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Facts don’t change with time Stilvi.
The day you own a horse and are told by your trainer to keep your friggin nose out of it then you are with the right trainer.
A trainer takes many things into consideration when placing a horse.
To be honest any first time owner who thinks he can buy a horse then start telling the trainer where to run him will very likely be asked if they wanted to train it themself in a friendly way……which is much the same as keep your friggin nose out of it
I disagree Aristo. I am not an owner and perhaps I dont know enough to pass comment but if a trainer dictated to me I’d move my horse. Surely the relationship of owner/trainer should be about compromise. Using the owners enthusiasm and interest together with the trainers eperience and know how. I’d leave "the training" of the beast to the trainer but see no reason why I couldn’t consult and agree with the trainer on which race to go for. And in todays climate, when attracting new owners is not easy, trainers need to become more people friendly.
I agree with Aristo and having owned horses myself I’m quite happy to leave it to the trainer. You don’t pay someone for a service and then tell them how to do their job. Daft example but you wouldn’t go to a doctor and tell them how to treat you now would you??
Here’s my slant on ownership. My family have owned horses for many years, with several trainers, but only recently found success. In this case, the trainer and his wife are the ones who decide where to run the horse(s), and then discuss with the owners what they think to running here on this day, or here on this day. The trainer then decides to declare the horse in which race they prefer, and with whichever jockey on board they prefer, unless the owner states they don’t want to run there, or they don’t want that jockey. Overall, the owners have little say, as after-all, that’s the trainers job, but they are kept well informed, and if there’s something they don’t like they can freely object. My family are and have been one of the bigger owners in the yard in recent years, and are also very, very good friends with the trainer, so therefore phone calls are almost daily. However, for the smallest owners, who aren’t as friendly with the trainer on such a social basis, I’d guess that phone calls to keep them informed are every 3 days, roughly.
I’m reminded of a quote from Mercy Rimmell along the lines of "the less the owners interfered the luckier they were".
Colin
With respect Colin, she would say that wouldn’t she whether it was true or not? Did she tar all owners with the same brush no matter how "shrewd" or knowledgeable they may be? And did she follow her own advice with Simon?
Plenty of owners have done entries etc successfully such as Nigel Shields, Peter Savill, Alan Potts, Sheikh Mohammed, no reason why many others cannot do it to their advantage and enjoyment for all the reasons indicated in apracing’s post.Lots of wise and based on experience comments on this thread. But I would add the comment that if you don’t trust the trainer to make the best decisions, it would be preferable to take your horse(s) elsewhere.
The most basic and most important decision for an owner to make is to pick a trainer whose skills are appropriate to the type/ability of the horse.
Get that decision right and all else falls into place.
In my wife and I’s case, we pick trainers who have proven experience with the level of horses we can afford to buy and with whom we can develop an open relationship. The training of horses and picking the right races goes hand in hand. Hence we would expect a trainer to communicate on the progress of the horse, his/her current ability and advise on entries. We would then discuss the possible entries and mutually agree the races to go for (and the jockey). There is no conflict involved and the decision is a shared one. So far as communication is concerned, we just talk as and when necessary, we don’t expect or want absolutely regular reports, partly for the reasons below.
I would add we live about an hours’ drive from Newmarket where our horses are trained and we call in the stables to see them at least once a fortnight. Over the years us and the horses have got to know each other, so we can understand their state of health and we are well aquainted with the stable staff whom we chat to about our horses as well as life in general.
I empathise totally with APs approach, especially about finding races either side of big meetings, but another consideration is that if you own a horse that has reached a certain handicap level, the number of opportunities may be limited.
For what it is worth my advice would be:
Start by finding the right trainer for your horse.
Develop an honest relationship – the trainer must know what you want (eg running at prestige meetings or running for the best chance of winning)
Try and visit the yard as often as you can and get to know the horse.
Get to know the stable staff for the reason that they do the basic looking after of the horse.
Above all achieve a communicative relationship with the trainer and if that isn’t possible, move the horse.
For what ’tis worth
richardInteresting stuff. My experience from watching racing on a day to basis over the last 5 years or so is that so many trainers who are clearly capable of getting a horse into a state of wellbeing to do itself justice could benefit enormously from someone like ap who knows the programme book inside out and could place the horse in ideal races.
So often you see a small trainer that gets their hands on a precocious juvenile, and rather than win an average maiden at a little track, they decide to run it at Newbury or Newmarket or somesuch place and get the horse badly handicapped for 18 months. Lots of trainers aren’t racereaders, and the majority would benefit enormously from using people like ap enormously.
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There’s an old saying in racing if you have a novice hurdler. "Keep yourslf in the best of company and your horse in the worst"
Unfortunately some people don’t listen and they are mainly owners. Friggin things show a bit of form at home and they next question is "Do you think we should send him for that race Hurricane Fly is entered for?"
As you say David they get a good horse and instead of seding him to Sedgefield and having abit of a touch they send them to Ascot finish 3rd to a very good animal and the next season they are carrying a silly weight with no chance of winning.
I’m not so sure it’s down to the trainer as most will listen to their jockeys. The problem usually comes from an owner like Mr Rich Guy who wants his horse to runamong the elite. Some trainers simply don’t have the balls to tell them that they are aiming way too high.
Some owners are just know it alls and if they don’t get their way they get nasty about it. Then when the horse gets stuffed they blame the trainer and the horse moves on.
Of course theyre are bad trainers too, like in every walk off life not all are good at what they do.
Pity their wasn’t a school owners could go to on how to own a racehorse and not get on the trainers wick.
) of apracing.
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