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Would you leave everything to the trainer? Personally, I can’t see what the pleasure would be in doing that. Of course I am not talking about interferring in the training side of things but I can’t see why an owner shouldn’t be able map out a programme of races. Are there trainers who insist on total control?
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I would imagine so in certain cases, stilvi – Henrietta Knight and Best Mate, anyone?
Were I in so fortunate a position as to own any number of racehorses, I would like to think that I had some say in the routes they took. What would be the point otherwise? I’m sure there are those who just want to land the occasional touch and therefore only ask to know when ‘it’s on’, but that goes against the grain of real ownership for me.
Obviously you need to listen to what your trainer tells you, but at upwards of £17,000 per year (per horse) I’d be fairly annoyed if I was merely perceived as ‘the bill-payer’.
In most cases I think it comes down to the calibre of the horse. If you are lucky enough to have a really serious horse, then the trainer will tend to "dictate" the programme, and I’m sure most owners would be comfortable with that. If, on the other hand, you own a 110-rated "fun" chaser, the trainer will be more inclined to indulge your whims.
There are some trainers around (and I’ve known a couple) who will not countenance any interference (as they see it) from owners, regardless of the calibre of the horse. Conversely, if you happen to be an owner of the magnitude of, say, Sir Robert Ogden, then your racing manager will do the programme planning and the trainer might not have much say in the matter.
I think in an ideal world it should be a co-operative effort. It would be crazy to entrust a trainer with the care of your horses and then take no account of their opinion when it comes to entering the horse to run. However, if you leave it entirely to the trainer there will always be a tendency for them to enter the horse where it suits them rather than you.
We like to discuss possible running plans with our trainer and make a joint decision on where best to run. He appreciates that we ideally like to run at local courses and at times when as many of us as possible can get there to see the race.
Provided the trainer has a track record of placing horses well (not all of them do) I would definitely leave it to the professional.
Colin
I guess it depends on the owner really. Some owners will prefer to sit back and let the trainer do the work, as they have other things to concentrate on, such as business interests. Whereas other owners will be hands on, probably the more gambling type, who will want to land a bit of a gamble with their horse, maybe, and will therefore want to plan a sequence of races for the animal.
I would suggest that a lot of owners are a mix between the two extremes. A trainer will come to an owner and say "What do you think of running him here, then here and then onto here" or an owner will say to the trainer "I notice there’s a race at so and so next weekend, why don’t we try that?"When I was a member of the now defunct East Midlands Racing Club I went to a talk given by a guy who had a tipping system based on checking out what horses had been entered for Group and Classic races, but were then raced at a lower level. One thing he mentioned at this talk was how some trainers were more prone to allowing their owners to tell them which races to enter the horses for
and which weren’t. I hasten to add that this was @ 20 years ago so I can’t remember exactly what he said, but did find it interesting at the time.
I would want to pick the jockey for sure. Certain jockeys I wouldn’t let near a horse of mine. Also, if I thought he/she was running over the wrong distance, I would certainly try suggest the distance I thought he/she should try.
I’d definitely want to plan which races to run in. And being from North of the border, I’d definitely be targetting the nice prize money at some of the northern tracks.
Besides, I reckon (as I am sure most of you do) I know enough about the race calender to be able to find good opportunities. As an owner, I’d be looking for my horse to pay its way. So at least one win a season with a few places chucked in. Although I wouldn’t be stupid enough to realise you have to lose some to get the handicap rating down a bit! Speaking of which…Barney Curley had couple winners today!
The day you own a horse and are told by your trainer to keep your friggin nose out of it then you are with the right trainer.
Owners including myself are the worst judges in the world when it comes to placing horses. They dream too much for a kick off.
IMO if you employ the trainer too do a job you stand back and let him get on with it unless you are JP and can afford a racing manager like Frank Berry who is in constant touch with the trainers of every horse he owns.
A trainer takes many things into consideration when placing a horse.
They talk to other trainers and their jockeys talk to other jockeys daily and what they hear through the grapevine plays a big part on whether they send a horse for a race or not.
An example: many years ago I was sitting in a jockeys living room when his phone rang. It was the owner/trainer of a young novice hurdler who they were lining up for a touch. He was entered on the Monday and the O/T was all up for running him. The jockey told him that he was told that one of Michael Dickinson’s was said to be catching pigeons at home and no way should they take him on. The horse Sir Wimpy a first timer won that race on the Monday in a common canter by about 30 lengths. Their horse ran on the Tuesday and he won by 30 lengths also in a common canter landing a touch in the process.
Information like that is worth it’s weight in gold to a trainer especially with novices and middle class horses. Of course if your horse is a dog doesn’t really matter where you run him
I see no harm in someone like Kauto Star or Denman’s owners suggesting to PN where they think Denman should run as it’s not the hardest thing in the world to work out.
To be honest any first time owner who thinks he can buy a horse then start telling the trainer where to run him will very likely be asked if they wanted to train it themself in a friendly way……which is much the same as keep your friggin nose out of it
IMO if you employ the trainer too do a job you stand back and let him get on with it unless you are JP and can afford a racing manager like Frank Berry who is in constant touch with the trainers of every horse he owns.
Conversation usually goes like this:
FB: Hello (insert trainers name here). How is (insert yokes name here) going?
Trainer X: The news isn’t good, Frank – he’s completely useless.
FB: But….but…..I told JP we should go to 400,000 Guineas for him!
Trainer X: I don’t know what to tell you, Frank – other than it’s an awful lot of cash for a 10yo gelding.
FB: Fu*ck it. Train him for the National, and I’ll get me divinin’ rod out again. I’m bound to nail one eventually.
The day you own a horse and are told by your trainer to keep your friggin nose out of it then you are with the right trainer.
A trainer takes many things into consideration when placing a horse.
To be honest any first time owner who thinks he can buy a horse then start telling the trainer where to run him will very likely be asked if they wanted to train it themself in a friendly way……which is much the same as keep your friggin nose out of it
I disagree Aristo. I am not an owner and perhaps I dont know enough to pass comment but if a trainer dictated to me I’d move my horse. Surely the relationship of owner/trainer should be about compromise. Using the owners enthusiasm and interest together with the trainers eperience and know how. I’d leave "the training" of the beast to the trainer but see no reason why I couldn’t consult and agree with the trainer on which race to go for. And in todays climate, when attracting new owners is not easy, trainers need to become more people friendly.
Must be the only time I’ve ever agreed with stilvi
I completely disagree with Aristo, why have someone who’s less idea than yourself deciding things? Of course if you’ve not much idea yourself it’s a different matter.
Most trainers just stumble their way through, their job is to train the horse and get it fit, I’ll decide the race and jockeyI seem to recall that member apracing is very involved in deciding targets for his horses. Perhaps he can share his own experience with us?
I’ve gone through all the stages over the years. My first horses were with David Elsworth in the early 80’s and at that time, I was very much a novice with no idea how the entry system worked. In fact, my first indication of an entry with him was usually seeing the horses name in the Sporting Life!
With Stan Mellor in the period 1989- 1991, I would talk with him about which tracks might suit the horse, but still left the entries to him (or his secretary). It was very difficult for an owner to get hold of the info about race programs, unless you were prepared to pay out for the Racing Calendar.
But since I’ve had horses with Pat Murphy, the full program has been available several months in advance, initially in loose leaf form from Weatherbys through the post, now online via the BHA website. The former cost about £120 per annum, the latter charges a daily fee each day you access the system.
I prepare a list of possible races for each horse up to two or three months in advance, then talk to Pat about when the horse will be ready, how often it might run, when do we need to give him a break etc. I then do the entries and I only enter in races that I definitely expect to run in, just occasionally two races to provide a choice of ground or opposition. Pat is perfectly happy to let me do the work of trawling through the program loking for races and to deal with admin and my approach keeps the costs to a minimum.
It also lets me spot opportunities that might otherwise be missed – for example last year, I noted a 2M handicap at Lingfield had only attracted 6 entries half an hour before the midday deadline. Salute is not very effective at Lingfield, but this race was worth £16,000, so I risked an entry and told Pat later. We agreed he’d run if it looked a chance to pick up some easy prize money – in the end there were three runners and he ‘earned’ £1600 for finshing last.
Recently, after Salute won at Wolverhampton and was raised to 79, we agreed we might as well take a chance and run in the Queens Prize, figuring that although that was an 86 – 105 rated race, nothing higher than 100 was likely to turn out so early in the season. In fact, a 103 horse was entered, but we still felt we might as well take a ‘nothing to lose’ view and run him, so he was declared. Fifteen minutes before the deadline, I could see that 15 of the 18 entries had been declared, so he’d be in a competitive race from 5lbs wrong in the weights. I cancelled the declaration myself, saving a £75 additional entry fee plus the costs of running in a race that looked unlikely to produce a return.
For me, the planning and deciding where to run and how best to achieve a return are the most enjoyable parts of ownership and the online systems have made it possible to handle all that myself with total confidence. I certainly wouldn’t be willing to go back to a situation in which a trainer made those decisions for me, nor would I be happy with the sort of thing I see happening to other owners.
A friend has a hurdler in a big yard – in one week recently, the horse was entered for seven novice hurdles, and he didn’t run in any of them! Total cost to the owner around £400, and the fact that he can well afford it is neither here nor there.
One other thing – the trainer may know the horse and what sort of race would suit, but how many would be prepared to go back through the form books to work out which races regularly attract small fields or turn out to be uncompetitive. That’s what I do and one aspect is to look for races that are ‘badly’ positioned in the program. When we first had Salute, he ran well over 12F on debut and I started looking for a race over the same trip. I chose one at Windsor worth £20,000, which I thought would be uncompetitive for the money because it was one week after Royal Ascot and one week before the Old Newton Cup at Haydock. We ended up in a 8 runner race and the rest is history. I don’t have the exact figures to hand, but I reckon more than half of the 50+ runs Salute has had in my colours have been in races with single figure fields and in almost every one of those races, he’s picked up some sort of prize money.
I have just entered Salute for a 2M handicap at Kempton next Tuesday – last year the same race had five runners and I’m hoping for something similar, as there are other 2M races at Newbury on Saturday and Lingfield on Sunday for the same group of horses. It’s a prime example of the sort of race I’d choose for those reasons. We’ll see how it works out in practice over the next few days!
That is great stuff apracing. A great insight into racehorse ownership. You sound like you enjoy it, and I guess owning a horse like Salute helps!
Your entry planning is top notch and that is what I would like to do if I was an owner. I’d have the sole aim of trying to have fun and pick up as much prize money with my horse at the right level – as suggested by apracing.
But I was shocked regarding the story of the novice hurdler being given 7 entries…and never running! If ever there was a reason for not trusting the trainer implicitly that is it! A total waste of an owners money. I fully understand entering in 2 or 3 races but to enter 7 and then not run is scandalous!
Me and a few pals are thinking of getting involved in racehorse ownership on a very small scale. Would anyone on the forum let me know what it would cost (on average) in training, ownership, and other fees to own one racehorse per year (although I am aware things like Vet bills cant be planned)?
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