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Perhaps Usain Bolt should have tried 800 metres, then he could claim to be the greatest?
Well put, Colin.
I just don’t get this public and media obsession with campaigning to push champions more and more until they’re beaten.
Henry Cecil, to his credit, completely ignored it regarding Frankel.
He did what was best for the horse, raced solely in Britain and never beyond 1m2f.
As the great comedian Jerry Seinfeld once said: “you should never give the public what they want, the public aren’t in showbiz, they haven’t got a clue what works best.”
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I think you are being unfair. If we should not express an opinion on where a horse runs next, what is the point of forums? Why not close them down and all just listen to the wisdom of William Haggas instead?
All that has happened here is in the aftermath of a high class performance, racing fans were disappointed that the Arc was ruled out. That is an entirely reasonable and legitimate opinion. It is also worth bearing in mind that connections were less adamant about ruling it out yesterday, so maybe they have had a rethink.
I recognise Colin’s point is satirical to an extent but it is not really comparing like with like. Bolt would clearly not have been capable of running in and winning the 800 metres. The same cannot be said about Baaeed and the Arc. If he was any other horse, after Wednesday’s performance would you have categorically ruled out trying 12 furlongs at some stage?
“I think you are being unfair. If we should not express an opinion on where a horse runs next, what is the point of forums?”
Fair comment, CAS, and I apologise if I appeared to be trying to stifle debate.
All opinions welcome – like you say it’s what the forum is for – and I certainly don’t think trainers are always correct.
Far from it.
It’s just that over the years I’ve seen both racing media and racing public trying to pick away at its equine heroes, like a spoilt child abusing a new toy, until it potentially breaks.
In those circumstances I’m often quite glad that neither media nor public get an actual vote on where a horse runs.
There will be a point at which any horse reaches it limit.
I doubt if Frankel or Baaeed would win a Gold Cup at Ascot for example.
That’s a facile extreme example, as the Gold Cup is a 2m4f anachronism (much though I still like it) nowadays.
The Arc is still a massive race, though possibly not as massive as it once was in commercial breeding terms as the emphasis globally is at 1m-1m2f nowadays, and I’d actually like to see Baaeed run in it too.
But I can entirely understand why he probably won’t.
Btw, none of this is new – I remember John Oaksey in the 80s suggesting Ardross be aimed at the Champion Hurdle.
He was (rightly IMO) completely ignored.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"“In those circumstances I’m often quite glad that neither media nor public get an actual vote on where a horse runs.”
Yes, of course I fully accept that connections should do what they believe is right for their horse and have the right to completely ignore public opinion. But the racing public who to a large extent pay for the sport via betting and admission prices are entitled to say what they would like to see.
As I said earlier, if the distance of the Arc is a problem nowadays, maybe it will have to be reduced if it wants to remain Europe’s preeminent race. The fact is the best horse of modern times swerved it and (despite connections being a little less dogmatic yesterday) it looks like horse who is arguably next best will give it a miss as well. Not a great look for Europe’s championship.
“But the racing public who to a large extent pay for the sport via betting and admission prices are entitled to say what they would like to see.”
Definitely, 100%, completely agree.
Tbh, we have a Racing Calendar, not just in the UK but in France too, which remains a hangover from the 18th/19th centuries.
Back then the Classics – almost like 2yo races now – were mere stepping stones to the then “big one,” the 2m4f Gold Cup at four, with the St Leger consequently being the most important and relevant contest for 3yo.
The elephant in the room is that, having won The Derby (1m4f), adding a 1m2f Group 1 is more useful commercially than winning the King George or the Arc nowadays.
The Derby should be 1m2f, the St Leger 1m4f, and the King George and Arc both reduced to 1m2f unless they want to play second fiddle to the International Stakes, Irish Champion and Champion in perpetuity.
Now I grew up with things as they are, it would horrify me, but the commercial pressure to make these alterations at some point in the future won’t go away.
Speed, precocity and 1m-1m2f as an older horse is where it’s at in 2022 – a far cry from 2m4f as an older horse being the zenith all those years ago.
Traditionalists will hope they never live to see this “future shock” scenario I am one day predicting.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I am starting to come around to the view that race distances will have to be reduced if the traditional races are to remain relevant. I do not particularly like it but the demand for speed does not look like it is going to go away.
Take Golden Horn. A well above average Derby winner, quick enough to win two Group 1s over the magic 10 furlongs and then an Arc winner. He is now being marketed as a dual purpose stallion and I would not be surprised to see him drift more towards being an NH sire.
Likewise Mogul. Perhaps a disappointing horse but he was good enough to win the Grand Prix du Paris over 12 furlongs. He is now on Coolmore’s NH stallion list. Not sure The Lads had that in mind for him when he cost $4 million.
“But the racing public who to a large extent pay for the sport via betting and admission prices are entitled to say what they would like to see.”
But is this true? Mark Johnston in his Straight Talking column quotes figures produced at the Horseracing Industry conference state that in 2019 the following figures were contributed to racing:
Betting industry (through media rights and levy) £262m
Owners £621m
Breeders £337m
Racegoer expenditure £257m
Sponsorship £56m
TV broadcasters £9mSo even adding together the betting industry figures and the racegoer expenditure this is still less than the amount contributed by owners.
Fair enough – I would amend my post to say “to some extent” instead of “to a large extent”. But a collapse in betting revenue would still leave a large hole in racing’s finances.
The Derby at 1m2f over my dead body. Too right Ian I hope I never live to see this.
Then what in 25-30 years time The Derby at 1m.
Why are we heading down this USA route?
I don’t much like it either, Chestnut, but owners globally mainly don’t have the patience of days of yore – they want precocious horses ready to race earlier over shorter distances and you can’t beat the economic laws of supply and demand in the long run.
Anyway, to address your earlier post, owners are the biggest net contributors to racing – I can readily accept that.
But where’s this figure for breeders coming from?
Breeders don’t “put in” – they “take out” – they’re running a business.
Owners: yes, punters: via bookmakers Levy and media rights bookies pay (out of profits from punters!): yes, sponsorship (a lot of it bookmakers, again funded by profit from punters!): yes.
But Breeders £337m?
Give over!
Get out of here!
The breeding industry is one big gravy train soaking owners – £337m taken OUT (off owners!) more like!
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I did not notice the “racegoer expenditure”, which is presumably the escalating admission prices and being charged £7.20 for a rubbish pint etc.
When you take that into account and the betting money and bookmaker sponsorship (money from losing punters), maybe my original post was not so wide of the mark after all!
I think you were spot on, CAS.
Owners, (long-term losing) punters and racegoers fund racing.
Literally everyone else is taking money out of the game.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Yes, that is how I have always understood it. Which is why Johnston looking down his nose at punters and betting is so annoying.
I went to the Middleham open day in the mid 1990s. Every yard was friendly and welcoming except his, where we were made to feel as if we should be grateful for just being allowed through the door.
I agree with the laws of supply and demand.
Leave the Derby and King George VI & Queen Elizabeth at 1m4f and if that distance becomes unfashionable so be it.
Then let the International and other shorter races take over and become more important.
The breeders are just dedicated followers of fashion it can change
If Frankel or another GOAT produce performances like that over 2400m then the breeders would be looking to produce horses for those distances. I wouldn’t mess with the races myself, it will all level out again..
one day..
maybe..
Blackbeard to conquer the World
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