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Wasn’t referring to you Robnorth.
I like blunt, Fist, give me blunt any day over namby pamby fence sitting. You’ve avoided being blunt there in any case. You’ve also picked me up wrongly. I haven’t said I want to do away with Pointing. I simply don’t believe that racing which is not accessable to punters in the same way that all other racing is (i.e. by being able to view all the Point races, and being able to access its form alongside regular form) , has a place under Rules.
On the subject of riders. Aren’t a lof of them 50 year old bags of skin and bone strapped to the back of an animal holding on for grim life? How could you take them seriously???
Edited to note that the above point is invalid (thanks to Ann Stokell & Barry Connell)
Horses for courses mate. You won’t find a Ruby Walsh amonth them but the likes of the Greenall’s have been riding and jumping fences since they were 7 year old or maybe even younger. I will never forget old John Thorne being slagged for coming too late in Aldaniti’s national on Spartan Missile. What the public never new is John Thorne was in the jockey’s changing room crying like a baby. Not because he was beat but because he was so happy at having finished second.
Theyre a grand bunch of people who love what they are doing and most have no interest in gambling. The can’t all be Alan Berry but horses do run for them and style doesn’t matter a jot to be honest.
They may not all be stylish like NH jockeys but most of them have ridden for years and jumped obstacles you wouldn’t believe. I don’t know what the average age is but no way is it anywhere near 50. Anyway there’s 50 year olds and 50 year olds. Jonjo was 57 this year and I bet the wee man would be fitter than most people half his age. Francome the same age and the last time I saw him he was looking fit.There are 50year old lads riding out everyday.
If someone is still riding after 40 then fair play to them. Anyway how’s you’re own riding skills? Be careful you don’t fall of that armchair
I would like to see hunter chases done away with.
Not because they are an unappealing betting medium to many, not because the standard of horse is sometimes poor, not even because the standard of jockeyship is sometimes an embarrassment. But because I find, and always have found, hunting a distasteful and outdated activity, and I feel that it does horseracing no favours whatsoever to continue to be so closely associated with it.
Renaming them veteran chases, or amateur chases, or whatever, and doing away with the parades of hounds and hunting pink would be a start, imo.
Bloody hell you’re a touchy lot in here, getting all hot under the collar over someone expressing an opinion that differs with yours, tut tut.
Graysoncolumn, I was referring to Point To Points not being televised, or even covered on the Racing Post’s site (outside the Irish form for some reason). And I dare say I won’t take up that challenge, as basically I’m a bone idle lazy bar steward who can’t be arsed going the extra mile for a disproportionate return.
Bbobell, why do you call me ‘mate’ and then in the same sentence accuse me of coming out with ‘tripe’? Thanks for the offer, but being a resident of the island of Ireland, there’s more chance of me getting a sniff of your Queen’s knickers than of attending a tweed clad affair in the middle of nowhere over yonder.
I’ve nothing against horses coming out of Points to compete under Rules, a lá Denman, but what I can’t be doing with is where they flit between the two, via Hunters’ Chases, and leave your average punter scratching around for clues as to what the hell is going on.
It’s just an opinion, and a topic for debate. If you want to sling mud and get all cranky, feel free; I find it quite amusing actually. :)
I was callling you mate in the London cabbie sense of the word and you are talking a lot of tripe. Anyway coming from the island of Ireland do you seriously want to do away with the Ladies Cup and the La Touche at Punchestown? Your own country’s point to point meetings are largely in the middle of nowhere as well. Oh and while I am at it would be so keen on me making a rude remark about your head of state?
Speaking as a total greenhorn on the subject of Hunter Chases, I thoroughly enjoyed yesterday evening’s hunter card from Folkestone. So much so that it gradually took precedence for me over the Ludlow card on RUK. As the evening wore on I became comfortable enough to bet on the last three races in-running!
Welcome to the dark side…
A couple of things struck me. The form of these hunter chases is a lot more consistent than you will find in the lower-grade NH racing.
Probably true, although the likelihood of getting the odd result beamed down from outer space – witness Tessa Good’s how-did-that-happen?!? win on The Baillie at Cheltenham last week – can never be entirely ruled out.
And it appeared to this untrained eye that most — if not all — of the participants were actually "trying" ; which again is not something you would confidently state about Class 5 and 6 races under rules. Probably that the riders and connections are serious about trying to win the decent prizemoney (comparatively speaking to usual p-t-p prizemoney) and the kudo’s associated with winning a hunter-chase.
God yes. However modest both the competition and the prizemoney may have looked in the wider scheme of things, an awful lot of the runners at Folkestone will have been trained with their respective races in mind for some time.
The third race, won by the increasingly impressive Say Grace, was a series final for horses who had qualified via selected Open Maiden points throughout the season.
Lastly, I would normally pay heed to the quality of jockey when making forming my judgements in normal NH races, and this factor ( a doubt about the caliber of Hunter chaser riders) was a concern. But I’ve come to realise that there is a hierarchy of excellence with Hunter riders as well — N Pearce, Wollacott, Waley-Cohen, etc — which can be significant. All-in-all, making hunter chases a decent enough environment for punting purposes if a person puts in the study.
Definitely. Richard Woollacott was a good booking for Mysaynoway, a mare who, at her worst, appears well and truly touched by madness. Nick Pearce rides what he trains (mostly for patron Simon Tindall), so familiarity with the horses such as Say Grace counts for plenty here, but he is a very competent rider all the same.
May I ask, could anybody recommend a web resource that contains previous hunter-chase form without a subscription fee? The SportingLife only provides LTO form for each runner in a race. (I haven’t used RacingPost site since it became "dotcom" some time back). Jeremy G has mentioned that an earlier thread this year contained a repository of such sources, but I cannot find it.
On closer inspection it wasn’t on here – my mistake. I listed them as part of this article – http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/general/be-a-hunter-not-prey-when-it-comes-to-betting-on-hunter-150209.html.
Previous hunter chases are available alongside other Rules races on the
Racing Post
website. As regards British point-to-points, http://www.pointtopoint.co.uk will let you have all this season’s results to date gratis, plus declarations for this coming weekend’s fixtures. You’d have to pay a subscription to see the form (all wins and places for the horse’s entire British pointing career) and – where available – footage of the races concerned, though.
HTH,
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Definitely. Richard Woollacott was a good booking for Mysaynoway, a mare who, at her worst, appears well and truly touched by madness.
She’s really not that bad GC – at least she wasn’t when we had her! Quiet, easy ride! Mind you, spending a lot of time with Tork would probably send most people more than a little bit mad…..!!
LOL, yes, point taken! I don’t think she is yet be fully relieved of her less lovable traits since the move from Kevin Tork to Alan and Lawney Hill, and I note that she is still possessive of a Mackenzie & Harris squiggle, but the signs are better than they were all the same.
I can forgive her erraticism even in victory on Thursday night, as she’s evidently not as happy going clockwise as anticlockwise – she chucked away a likely victory in a Cottenham Restricted on day one of the pointing season when going left round a right-hand bend.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
- Total Posts 17716
I would like to see hunter chases done away with.
Not because they are an unappealing betting medium to many, not because the standard of horse is sometimes poor, not even because the standard of jockeyship is sometimes an embarrassment. But because I find, and always have found, hunting a distasteful and outdated activity, and I feel that it does horseracing no favours whatsoever to continue to be so closely associated with it.
Renaming them veteran chases, or amateur chases, or whatever, and doing away with the parades of hounds and hunting pink would be a start, imo.
I’m with you halfway on that Pru. It is certainly outdated in the sense you would think in this day and age their would be a more humane way of handling the problem.
On the otherhand if you saw the destruction a fox out for thr kill causes you might not be so hard on hunting them.
You may or may not be aware of this but a fox will kill a hunderd chickens or lambs and take away one. They cost farmers millions every year in loss of livestock. They are a complete menace and must be dealt with.
Hounds are an effective way of digging them out and yes! it’s not a pleasant sight.
You can shoot them but too bad if you are near a main road and risk the chance of being arrested under the fire arms act. You can’t poision, gas or trap them as all are illegal. Even the wire snares used to catch rabbits are illegal.
There are ways like paint everything around with creosote and make your farm look like a pig stye or run miles of electrified wire fence round the entire farm only to find vandals burst it or the fox is inside the area you just spent a fortune wiring.
You can also fire huge water pistols at them from the top of your barn or sing Scotland the Brave at the top of your voice all night. They don’t like either
.Seriously though I’m not condoning it nor am I siding with anyone I am only telling you what farmers have told me. I am not up to date on these things either so laws may have changed I really don’t know.
Thanks for that, fist.
I am well aware of the arguments involved. I am just not anything like so clear about what links a problem of pest control with a multi-billion-pound sport trying to position itself optimally in the modern world of entertainment.
Haven’t been able to read all of this thread, but I have nothing against Hunter Chases. It gives PTP stables a chance to effectively race under rules, gives young, amateur riders a chance to ride in races and also allows some racing stables a chance to run their lesser lights or their older boys. I have nothing against them.
I don’t like hunter chases as a betting medium. Don’t know enough about the horses form; there is no Timeform for point to points. More to the point, don’t know enough about the riders who have varying degrees of ability.
To say hunters are more consistent is BS. The races are just not so competitive, therefore favourites (often odds-on favs) win more often.
However, they have played an important part in National "Hunt" racing. And just because they are not a betting medium for the masses; does not mean they do not have a place in racing. I quite like the amateur aspect and joy connections get in winning.
Racing should not be all about betting.
Much rather watch a hunter chase than a bumper which are (imo) point less.
Would like to ask Prufrock how he’d rather foxes were controled?
Shooting? That way a fit fox gets killed just as often as an unfit one. They can also be badly injured, slope away to have a long lingering death. Where as with hunting, a fit fox has a chance to get away; natural selection. And although it can be a bloody, violent death, it is usually a quick one.
Gassing? Could be wrong, but I believe this is legal for liscenced people.
Lamping? Shining a strong light in their eyes to shoot.Fist is exactly right, a fox will kill every chicken in a penn and walk off with just one. It has happened to my grandparent’s chickens.
If you are against it, do you have an alternative?
Mark
Value Is EverythingWould like to ask Prufrock how he’d rather foxes were controled?
That’s very kind of you to ask. However, I don’t see what relevance a discussion of my preferred means of control of pests and vermin should have to horseracing.
I listed them as part of this article – http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/general/be-a-hunter-not-prey-when-it-comes-to-betting-on-hunter-150209.html.
Previous hunter chases are available alongside other Rules races on the
Racing Post
website.
Cheers GC, many thanks for that. A very worthwhile and interesting article.
I must force myself to resume referring to the RP site rather than SportingLife for form-reading ……… although I find it interminably slow and fiddlesome since the "make-over".I don’t like hunter chases as a betting medium. Don’t know enough about the horses form; there is no Timeform for point to points. More to the point, don’t know enough about the riders who have varying degrees of ability.
To say hunters are more consistent is BS.
It may be bullsh!t, but it is the conclusion I have arrived at!
I was simply expressing a personal opinion rightly-or-wrongly, but thanks for your well-reasoned and comprehensive rebuttal anyway.An observation; if you believe you are not familiar enough with hunter-chaser form/riders etc, then why not acquaint yourself with same via a little research or form-study as suggested by others on this thread!
Simples, no?I don’t like hunter chases as a betting medium.
Don’t know enough about the horses form;
there is no Timeform for point to points. More to the point, don’t know enough about the riders who have varying degrees of ability.
To say hunters are more consistent is BS
. The races are just not so competitive, therefore favourites (often odds-on favs) win more often.
……
Mark
Mark, given that you admit to not knowing enough about the horses’ form, how can you question that they are more consistent?
Rob
I don’t like hunter chases as a betting medium.
Don’t know enough about the horses form;
there is no Timeform for point to points. More to the point, don’t know enough about the riders who have varying degrees of ability.
To say hunters are more consistent is BS
. The races are just not so competitive, therefore favourites (often odds-on favs) win more often.
……
Mark
Mark, given that you admit to not knowing enough about the horses’ form, how can you question that they are more consistent?
Rob
Good question Rob
As I said hunter chases are usually a lot less competitive than handicappers. With many short priced favourites who can often win races without running to their best (below form). Where as a handicapper may seem as though he is inconsistant, with a win, fourth, 6th and 2nd to his name. Yet may well have run to the same form on each run, with different handicap marks.
A lot of horses that go in to hunter chases are old handicappers. Often transfering from professional top class trainers to amateurs. It is (imo) rediculous to think these good amateurs can maintain a horse’s form better than Paul Nicholls or Willie Mullins etc. The hunter-chase season is much, much shorter than the main season. A pro trainer can keep a horse going for three or four runs just as, if not better, than an amateur. But with a handicapper, the trainer often has to keep them going all year; unless they have a break. So although it may seem hunters are more consistant the reality is (imo) very different.
To have a valid opinion on this Rob, you don’t need to know everything about point-to-points, or hunter chases. Think it is a matter of logic. I did not say I know nothing about it, just not enough to bet on it (successfully).
Mark
Value Is EverythingI don’t like hunter chases as a betting medium. Don’t know enough about the horses form; there is no Timeform for point to points. More to the point, don’t know enough about the riders who have varying degrees of ability.
To say hunters are more consistent is BS.
It may be bullsh!t, but it is the conclusion I have arrived at!
I was simply expressing a personal opinion rightly-or-wrongly, but thanks for your well-reasoned and comprehensive rebuttal anyway.An observation; if you believe you are not familiar enough with hunter-chaser form/riders etc, then why not acquaint yourself with same via a little research or form-study as suggested by others on this thread!
Simples, no?Sorry, if I offended you Hoofhearted. My assertion of BS was of course my opinion, your opinion is just as valid as mine. I just found it illogical for the reasons I give above, but may be I am wrong. When I made that post I did not have time for the more comprehensive reply my BS statement deserved. Apologies.
I already study horse racing in a big way using Timeform. That is just what I am used to. Of course people can make a profit by betting on hunters, if they want to put in the hours. I just have no inclination to learn, it does not interest me enough.
Mark
Value Is EverythingWould like to ask Prufrock how he’d rather foxes were controled?
That’s very kind of you to ask. However, I don’t see what relevance a discussion of my preferred means of control of pests and vermin should have to horseracing.
Prufrock,
The reason for my politeness was precisely because I realise it is a subject not directly to do with horse racing.
However, it was you who on this thread described hunting as a "
distasteful and outdated activity
". So you are willing to describe one method of pest control with such distain, yet are unwilling or unable (I have no way of knowing which) to show why you think this way. Or that you have another, more reasonable way of pest control.
Suppose I will just have to give you the benifit of the doubt Prufrock. Am sure some people have valid reasons for their "distasteful" opinion. Others just see a creature portrayed as a soft furry animal (aahhh) who does no harm. Some of the anti-hunt lobby don’t realise they need to be controled or have any humane alternative, covenient for them.
What about rats, should they be "hunted" by jack russels? Or do their looks make them imune from the anti-lobby?
Of course it is up to the individual, they don’t need to give reasons. But if they do not, then it allows others to form their own ideas of why. Just thought you might want to give your alternative Prufrock.
Mark
Value Is Everything
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