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How many 2007 Chelt Festival winners did we see today

Home Forums Horse Racing How many 2007 Chelt Festival winners did we see today

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  • #43979
    SirHarryLewis
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    • Total Posts 1208

    Good horse he certainly is, but he has undoubtedly been gifted a series of mainly uncompetetive races, the latest on Saturday, by dint of failures in the opposition rather than his own intrinsic superiority."

    <br>A comment like that makes no sense what so ever.  

    SHL

    #43982
    clivex
    Member
    • Total Posts 3420

    His poor jumping technique at speed was also exposed at Haydock too. The pace there had him floundering.

    Reets point is accurate and does not simply apply to Cheltenham. It would have applied to many courses. Imagine him at Kempton….

    #43985
    SirHarryLewis
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1208

    Quote: from clivex on 5:48 pm on Feb. 12, 2007[br]His poor jumping technique at speed was also exposed at Haydock too. The pace there had him floundering.

    Reets point is accurate and does not simply apply to Cheltenham. It would have applied to many courses. Imagine him at Kempton….

    <br>At the end of the day clivex, what reet actually said was that the big Irish Grade 1s such as the lexus, heinekin cup, irish gold cup over recent years were easy to win and were not genuine grade 1’s.

    This is because in his and your eyes, genuine grade 1 performances dont happen on genuinely soft or heavy ground.  They dont happen in small fields and Im afraid they dont happen on irish racecourses (why the latter Im not sure yet)  Your welcome to such an opinion.

    SHL

    #43986
    Burroughhill
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    • Total Posts 1638

    Quote: from dandan on 3:33 pm on Feb. 12, 2007[br]A lot of crap being talked about a great horse.

    It doesn’t matter a jot that he hasn’t won a Gold Cup.

    He has won TEN grade 1’s against top class opposition.

    He has the heart of a lion as we know from his victories against War Of Attrition and The Listener this year, and his ability to finish a never-nearer fourth in a Gold Cup after jumping woefully with a sore back to hinder him.

    He has the constitution of an ox, given that he has been winning these grade 1’s since 2003-

    Colnol Braxton is dead.<br>Tiutchev has retired.<br>Harbour Pilot has retired.<br>Kicking King has almost certainly retired.<br>Best Mate is dead.<br>Hedgehunter has done nothing this season.<br>War Of Attrition has done nothing this season.

    Beef Or Salmon, on the other hand, was busy turning around 8l of Christmas form over a very high class, progressive young horse at Leopardstown last Saturday.

    To my mind, he is an absolute monster. And I’m sure connections will agree given he has earned them well in excess of 1,000,000 euros down the years.

    Anyone who doesn’t agree this is a great horse- well I’ll be laughing at you rather than listening to you.

    <br>(Edited by dandan at 3:34 pm on Feb. 12, 2007)<br>

    Hear hear! Couldn’t have put it better myself.

    #43989
    PAULCS
    Member
    • Total Posts 529

    <br>He’s never been one of my favourites but I have marked him down as a great of HIS GENERATION and an Irish chasing great.

    For me, if you are only beaten 3.5L in a Gold Cup as he was in 2004, you are Gold Cup class.

    Best Mate was the far better horse with a 3-1 head-to-head record. The only time BoS came out on top was when BM had the virus.

    Maybe that 2004 Gold Cup was Beef Or Salmon’s for the taking, a bit like it being Henman’s year at Wimbledon when Goran Ivanisevic won.

    Can fully understand why he was patiently ridden that year but maybe that was his only real chance…..

    #43992
    Racing Daily
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1364

    There is nothing to not like about BoS as a horse.  He is game and admirable, and ranks as capable of putting in top class performances.  But the simple fact is that he does not run his best races at Cheltenham.  To say that he has beaten several Gold Cup winners actually means nothing in the context of this debate.  Did he beat them in a Gold Cup?  Exactly.<br>Would you have opposed Red Rum in a National?  I would’nt.  However, i’d have opposed him every time around Doncaster or Newbury.  It’s horses for courses, and BoS isn’t the same horse at Prestbury Park over 3m2f in March.  That doesn’t in any way demerit his achievments elsewhere.

    #43994
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17718

    My contention, all along, is that the horse is incapable of winning a race run at a proper championship pace.<br>If you don’t accept that view, maybe some could accept the evidence shown by the clock?<br>To use an independent, and freely available, estimation, take a look at the RP speed figures.<br> It is reasonable to assume,(imo), that a s/f of 150 is within the compass of a good handicapper, whereas a s/f of , say 165, is only attainable by a genuine gd1 horse, and to win such a race constitutes genuine top class form<br>Five times has the horse been asked to race at more than a handicap pace, and on each occasion he has been found wanting; notably:<br>Btn 8l by The Listener, Leop. – s/f (weight adjusted) 162<br>Btn 17l by Kauto Star, Haydock – s/f (w.a.) 179.<br>Btn 1.5l by Kingscliffe, Haydock = s/f (w.a.) 170.<br>Btn 3.5l by Best Mate, Chelt. – s/f (w.a.) 179<br>Btn 13l by Best Mate, Leop. – s/f (w.a) 155.<br>Note: <br>Only 1 of the 5 races above was at Cheltenham.

    He has never won a race at more than a handicapping pace.

    In any of the above 5 races, he was never nearer than at the finish, which strongly suggests, that at a proper Championship pace, he is little more than a boat.

    Tell me again how good he is?

    #43996
    Burroughhill
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1638

    All horses have paces at which they run best. Some like a fast run race, some a slow one, but that doesn’t make them any less of a good horse. OK he’s not the fastest horse that ever ran a Gold Cup but his guts and determination are what make him stand out for me. <br>And he still beat the best, whatever pace they were running at! Why didn’t they go quicker then?

    #43999
    SirHarryLewis
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1208

    "Best Mate was the far better horse with a 3-1 head-to-head record. The only time BoS came out on top was when BM had the virus"

    Best Mate was beaten by the ground  but in my opinion did extraordinarily well to finish as close as he did and as a side order, who had the virus the year BM won the Lexus. BM wasnt the same horse on soft ground was he?  Yet he was a very very good horse who also got knocked in the same way that BOS did.  

    <br>Reet, your comments about championship pace as you term it are all very fine but top class chasing has also been traditionally about slogging it out.  In your world the best horse is the one that can go from a to b quickest on good ground but this is a naive view of racing.  

    IF he is a "boat", then he should be easy to beat under soft ground conditions and the overwhelming evidence is that he is very difficult to beat.  Therefore genuine grade 1,…

    At the end of the day of course, you did say and presume you are standing over the fact that he only won uncompetitive races. In other words he beat nothing on the day, every day he won so if thats the way you see it, thats fine.   Still an extraordinary conclusion…..you must have cleaned up in the ring.

    SHL

    #44000
    clivex
    Member
    • Total Posts 3420

    This is because in his and your eyes, genuine grade 1 performances dont happen on genuinely soft or heavy ground.  They dont happen in small fields and Im afraid they dont happen on irish racecourses (why the latter Im not sure yet)  Your welcome to such an opinion.

    The last part is just chippy rubbish

    (Edited by clivex at 12:09 pm on Feb. 13, 2007)

    #44001
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17718

    SHL

    If you’re gonna quote me, at least do me the service of using my words rather than yours; not related to Stav, are you?:biggrin: <br>What I wrote was "in mainly uncompetetive races" which rather negates most of your last paragraph. <br>Saturday’s race was a case in point; basically a 2 horse race from the start, with The Listener not seeing out his race for whatever reason, all BoS had to do was plod on at his usual married man’s gait to collect. Just one instance of many where he has collected a gd1 prize without a gd1 performance.

    IF he is a "boat", then he should be easy to beat under soft ground conditions and the overwhelming evidence is that he is very difficult to beat.

    That is precisely the point. Because he lacks the pace to be competetive on proper racing ground, he needs ‘cut’ to slow the others down.<br>As for my skills in the ring, I will leave that for others to judge, all I will say is that they are no way retarded by reading and understanding a horse’s form, rather than following the common herd.<br>Pity we don’t have a smiley with two fingers rampant.:)

    #44002
    SirHarryLewis
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1208

    "in mainly uncompetetive races"

    well that changes everything then.  ;)

    At the end of the day, avoiding all bitchiness. I apologise for that Reet, its not good for the forum.

    I think we just have a different philosphy on what grade 1 horses are and should be capable of.  We are both rather forgiving  and less forgiving of different aspects of a horses weakness.

    And no, im not stav…he was one of you time jockeys wasnt he. :biggrin:

    SHL

    #44003
    davidbrady
    Member
    • Total Posts 3901

    reet hard

    what exactly is "proper racing ground" in your opinion

    Regarding the speed figures you quoted are you telling me that:

    (a) Kingscliffe earned a weight adjusted rating of 170 for winning the Betfair Chase in 2005. So even though BoS was only 1.25 lengths behind but still didn’t earn a good enough speed figure to be deemed Gr1 standard

    (b) Best Mate earned a weight adjusted rating of 179 for winning the Gold Cup in 2004 and BoS was only 3.5 lengths behind but still didn’t earn a good enough speed figure to be deemed Gr1 standard

    (c) Kauto Star earned a weight adjusted rating of 179 for winning the Betfair Chase in 2005 and BoS was 17 lengths behind but still didn’t earn a good enough speed figure to be deemed Gr1 standard

    How many speed points does 1 length in a 3m Gr1 chase equal?

    And how many Gr1 standard horses over 3m have we seen in your opinion in the last 5 years? Two? BM & KS probably.

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