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How many 2007 Chelt Festival winners did we see today

Home Forums Horse Racing How many 2007 Chelt Festival winners did we see today

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  • #43964
    Burroughhill
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1638

    Quote: from PAULCS on 9:30 pm on Feb. 11, 2007[br]Yes it was a fantastic day’s racing – in fact I’d go as far as saying that it was the best non-Festival day I’ve seen in my lifetime – though I was only born in 86:biggrin:

    Will never happen but imagine the roar if Beef Or Salmon were to do the unthinkable in the Gold Cup!

    (Edited by PAULCS at 9:31 pm on Feb. 11, 2007)<br>

    I think I agree with you Paul. Just a breathtaking day.

    BOS winning the Gold Cup would be the most emotional win for me ever, but it ain’t gonna happen. It’s such a shame when he’s clearly been Gold Cup standard fro years.

    #43965
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17718

    Quote: from Burroughhill on 5:51 am on Feb. 12, 2007:  

    BOS winning the Gold Cup would be the most emotional win for me ever, but it ain’t gonna happen. It’s such a shame when he’s clearly been Gold Cup standard fro years.

    Oh, come on BH!<br>If there is one thing that is absolutely clear about BoS, it is that he isn’t Gold Cup standard, and never has been.<br>He is fine pot-hunting in mickey mouse races round the gaffes in Ireland, but every single time he has been asked to race at a championship pace, on proper ground, he has been found to lack the pace to even be a threat. Real champions don’t do that.

    #43966
    clivex
    Member
    • Total Posts 3420

    Precisely Reet

    So it BOS – no way.

    Denman – had thought he might be a bit overrated.Looks to have improved in every way and hard to see him beaten now. He looked fantastic in the paddock too

    Kauto – Yes. Seems to be forgotten that for virtually all of saturdays race, he jumped better than ever. Is everyone writing off VPU’s chances of getting round now?

    Aran Concerto – Looks good. But apart from trainers Sweet Wake like comments, not enough tehre to suggest the banker that some think he is

    Crocodile Rock. Not sure, but isnt there a lot of confidence behind Cork all Stars (from a trainer whos pretty down to earth)

    Well Chief- Yes. <br>

    #43967
    SirHarryLewis
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1208

    Quote: from guskennedy on 12:00 pm on Feb. 11, 2007[br]Denman was impressive but faster ground at the Festival found him out last year and may do so again.<br>

    He was found out also by a very good horse and a repeat of that type of performance would see him home IMO.  Other than that, Patsy Hall who ran during the weekend will actually win the Sun Alliance..you heard it first here :)

    SHL

    #43968
    davidbrady
    Member
    • Total Posts 3901

    Quote: from reet hard on 8:17 am on Feb. 12, 2007[br]If there is one thing that is absolutely clear about BoS, it is that he isn’t Gold Cup standard, and never has been.<br>He is fine pot-hunting in mickey mouse races round the gaffes in Ireland, but every single time he has been asked to race at a championship pace, on proper ground, he has been found to lack the pace to even be a threat. Real champions don’t do that.<br>

    Leopardstown and Punchestown are gaffe tracks holding mickey-mouse Gr1 races are they? The same gaffe tracks that Moscow Flyer, Kicking King, War of Attrition, Brave Inca, Hardy Eustace, Limestone Lad, Native Upmanship all ran on before going over to Cheltenham or Aintree.

    And lets have a quick glance at some of BoS Gr1 wins  

    09-Feb-03 LEO Yld/Sft: beat Harbour Pilot 5 lengths who later went on to finish 3rd to Best Mate in the Gold Cup 6 weeks later<br>07-Dec-03 PUN Yld: beat Tiutchev 3.5 lengths who than ran 2nd to Edredon Bleu in the King George 3 weeks later

    28-Apr-04 PUN Gd: beat Harbour Pilot 4 lengths after HP had finished 3rd in the Gold Cup only 6 weeks earlier

    12-Feb-06 LEO Yld: beat Hedgehunter 7 lengths before HH went on to finish 2nd in both the Gold Cup and the National.

    All the above races were Gr1 which were run on going better than Sft so lets dispel the bulls**t<br> myth that the horse needs bottomless ground to be at his best.

    The issue of not being a good traveller is completely separate to not being a Gr1 standard 3-miler

    He has also beaten 3 Gold Cup winners and a National winner when these horses were in their prime.

    How many English horses have done that?<br>How many English horses have won 10 Gr1s?<br>How many English horses have won 9 Gr1s like Brave Inca who also doesn’t get the recognition he deserves from you or clivex because why?

    Edited to say:

    It just really p**s
    es me off when horses don’t get the recognition they deserve.  Any horse with a decent level of ability can win a Gr1 either by default or otherwise (even a GC, Ch Ch, or Ch Hdl). But a bad horse doesn’t win multiple Gr1s. Just as Best Mate doesn’t get the credit he deserves because bad horses (even those wrapped in cotton wool) don’t win 3 Gold Cups.

    (Edited by davidbrady at 11:57 am on Feb. 12, 2007)

    #43969
    SirHarryLewis
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1208

    Quote: from davidbrady on 11:37 am on Feb. 12, 2007[br]

    Quote: from reet hard on 8:17 am on Feb. 12, 2007[br]If there is one thing that is absolutely clear about BoS, it is that he isn’t Gold Cup standard, and never has been.<br>He is fine pot-hunting in mickey mouse races round the gaffes in Ireland, but every single time he has been asked to race at a championship pace, on proper ground, he has been found to lack the pace to even be a threat. Real champions don’t do that.<br>

    Leopardstown and Punchestown are gaffe tracks holding mickey-mouse Gr1 races are they? The same gaffe tracks that Moscow Flyer, Kicking King, War of Attrition, Brave Inca, Hardy Eustace, Limestone Lad, Native Upmanship all ran on before going over to Cheltenham or Aintree.

    And lets have a quick glance at some of BoS Gr1 wins  

    09-Feb-03 LEO Yld/Sft: beat Harbour Pilot 5 lengths who later went on to finish 3rd to Best Mate in the Gold Cup 6 weeks later<br>07-Dec-03 PUN Yld: beat Tiutchev 3.5 lengths who than ran 2nd to Edredon Bleu in the King George 3 weeks later

    28-Apr-04 PUN Gd: beat Harbour Pilot 4 lengths after HP had finished 3rd in the Gold Cup only 6 weeks earlier

    12-Feb-06 LEO Yld: beat Hedgehunter 7 lengths before HH went on to finish 2nd in both the Gold Cup and the National.

    All the above races were Gr1 which were run on going better than Sft so lets dispel the bulls**t<br> myth that the horse needs bottomless ground to be at his best.

    The issue of not being a good traveller is completely separate to not being a Gr1 standard 3-miler

    He has also beaten 3 Gold Cup winners and a National winner when these horses were in their prime.

    How many English horses have done that?<br>How many English horses have won 10 Gr1s?<br>How many English horses have won 9 Gr1s like Brave Inca who also doesn’t get the recognition he deserves from you or clivex because why?[/

    :angry: :angry: :angry: :cheesy:

    Ah but Dave, dont you know that some form members ideas of culture still amounts to benidorm :)

    We have had these debates before but if you believe that good ground chasing is the superior form, then fine, we can discount what happens for most of the season and downgrade every horse that ran well in cheltenham previous to nineties.

    I agree that real champions can handle all conditions which BOS clearly can not but then again, many cheltenham winners are not the same horses with cut in the ground and shouldnt be halo’d anymore then other horses.

    (Edited by SirHarryLewis at 11:55 am on Feb. 12, 2007)

    SHL

    #43970
    Andrew Hughes
    Member
    • Total Posts 1904

    As I read it, Reet was responding to the contention that BoS was and had been Gold Cup class for years. It all depends on what you consider ‘Gold Cup Class’ to mean. I don’t think he can be considered to be Gold Cup Class in the narrow sense (a real contender to win it) because he has demonstrated that he is unable to remain competitive and sustain his jumping at the pace that race is usually run at.

    He is clearly a very good and consistent Grade 1 horse, just not amongst the very best. I suspect Reet’s talk of ‘mickey mouse races round gaffe tracks’ was a little tongue in cheek.

    #43971
    clivex
    Member
    • Total Posts 3420

    The issue of not being a good traveller is completely separate to not being a Gr1 standard 3-miler

    If we think of the top class chasers in the past, we think of those that can jump at speed and handle reasonable size fields. The odd one has underperformed at Cheltenham of course, but not to such (apart from once maybe) a great extent

    Hes got a big engine but his technique is too ordinary. It all falls apart when theres just a bit too much pressure and that is not what you expect from a really top class animal. Which he isnt of course…

    #43972
    davidjohnson
    Member
    • Total Posts 4491

    Beef Or Salmon – Not Gold Cup class? He must have got lucky then the day he beat the last 3 Gold Cup last winners.

    #43973
    davidbrady
    Member
    • Total Posts 3901

    Quote: from clivex on 12:10 pm on Feb. 12, 2007[br]

    It all falls apart when theres just a bit too much pressure…<br>

    Oh – you mean like Kauto Star’s jumping falls apart in every race at some stage, usually at the business end.

    #43974
    SirHarryLewis
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1208

    Quote: from davidjohnson on 12:21 pm on Feb. 12, 2007[br]Beef Or Salmon – Not Gold Cup class? He must have got lucky then the day he beat the last 3 Gold Cup last winners.<br>

    He was also fourth in the race one year…not beaten too far so technically speaking was good enough to run in it and clearly was Gold Cup standard.

    <br>I think we all know he hasnt much chance of winning it without lots of rain, especially at this age of his life but he is a top class chaser in his own right and deserves great credit.

    Perhaps Nickname will never ever see cheltenham either but that shouldnt stop him being seen as a top two mile chaser.

    SHL

    #43975
    clivex
    Member
    • Total Posts 3420

    f – 4 – 11 – PU

    Cracking record

    Its not just that. he (apart from once maybe) has looked embarrasingly outclassed. at least the wayward lads of this world (who couldnt handle the course) made a decent fist of it

    SHL. which one is it then? :) <br>

    <br> think we all know he hasnt much chance of winning it without lots of rain

    All the above races were Gr1 which were run on going better than Sft so lets dispel the bulls**t <br>myth that the horse needs bottomless ground to be at his best.

    #43976
    SirHarryLewis
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1208

    Quote: from clivex on 2:22 pm on Feb. 12, 2007[br]f – 4 – 11 – PU

    Cracking record

    Its not just that. he (apart from once maybe) has looked embarrasingly outclassed. at least the wayward lads of this world (who couldnt handle the course) made a decent fist of it

    SHL. which one is it then? :) <br>

    <br> think we all know he hasnt much chance of winning it without lots of rain

    All the above races were Gr1 which were run on going better than Sft so lets dispel the bulls**t <br>myth that the horse needs bottomless ground to be at his best.

    Well I didnt write the second piece.  My opinion is that he does need heavy ground at this age of his life since he appears to jump too slowly to give himself a chance on good ground.  Happy now??

    The bottom line for me clivex is that he clearly is a top class chaser….not arkle ….just a top class chaser but one who somehow doesnt seem tailored to the unique challenge of the gold cup because thats what the cheltenham gold cup offers …a unique challenge.

    I dont see anything even controversial about that statement.

    SHL

    #43977
    dandan
    Member
    • Total Posts 199

    A lot of crap being talked about a great horse.

    It doesn’t matter a jot that he hasn’t won a Gold Cup.

    He has won TEN grade 1’s against top class opposition.

    He has the heart of a lion as we know from his victories against War Of Attrition and The Listener this year, and his ability to finish a never-nearer fourth in a Gold Cup after jumping woefully with a sore back to hinder him.

    He has the constitution of an ox, given that he has been winning these grade 1’s since 2003-

    Colnol Braxton is dead.<br>Tiutchev has retired.<br>Harbour Pilot has retired.<br>Kicking King has almost certainly retired.<br>Best Mate is dead.<br>Hedgehunter has done nothing this season.<br>War Of Attrition has done nothing this season.

    Beef Or Salmon, on the other hand, was busy turning around 8l of Christmas form over a very high class, progressive young horse at Leopardstown last Saturday.

    To my mind, he is an absolute monster. And I’m sure connections will agree given he has earned them well in excess of 1,000,000 euros down the years.

    Anyone who doesn’t agree this is a great horse- well I’ll be laughing at you rather than listening to you.<br>

    (Edited by dandan at 3:34 pm on Feb. 12, 2007)

    #43978
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17718

    So, he has won 10 gd1’s, which is probably more than Arkle, therefore he must be a better horse??????????<br>The bottom line is the horse cannot run or jump at a championship pace on proper ground, and therefore has no pretensions to being a Gold Cup horse.<br>The best placing he ever achieved was the year when the race was run at a searing pace, and he never got a look in until running into 4th place at the death, when most of the field had already given their all.<br> It isn’t just Cheltenham, either, as soon as he gets away from the steadily run, small field Irish races that he farms so effectively, his lack of top class racing pace invariably exposes him as beneath the best..<br>Good horse he certainly is, but he has undoubtedly been gifted a series of mainly uncompetetive races, the latest on Saturday, by dint of failures in the opposition rather than his own intrinsic superiority.<br>To put him on the same pedestal as such as Best Mate is, in my view, entirely laughable.

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