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How accurate are going descriptions?

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  • #13386
    Avatar photoTor mentor
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    • Total Posts 262

    This happens all the time,as we know.
    Can’t always blame the clerk of the course.The met office and localised weather reporters have been known to make mistakes.

    #261708
    Avatar photoCav
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    • Total Posts 4833

    Fakenham is notorious for producing duff going reports if finishing distances and times are anything to go by. I’ve measured the distances (which are correct) using mapping software, and rail movement on such a tight track is never an issue. In 88 meetings there since Jan 1st 2000, he’s only ever called it soft on 5 occasions. This is patently not the case, I make it 37.

    I’d concur with your assessment of the clerk there, happy.

    #261749
    % MAN
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    • Total Posts 5104

    Although it pains me to say it :lol: I am with Happy on this one.

    When I arrived at Fakenham on Monday virtually the first thing I said was "I presume the going has changed?" and I was gobsmacked when I was told it was still the same.

    Even after the first race when jocks were reporting some very soft patches on the far side there was no change to the official going.

    It wasn’t until after race three they finally conceded there were some soft patches.

    Whilst there are some good Clerks, far too many still produce "Fantasy Going Reports" presumably under guidance from the course management who are under economic pressure – hence the number of very late calls during the frost season.

    The going stick is of no real value either, as it can be manipulated. Indeed I have been told at one of the going stick courses last year a certain Clerk actually demonstrated how to use the stick to "achieve the desired reading".

    I think the time has come to take responsibility for going reports away from the Clerks and to have a central, "impartial" team responsible for such reporting.

    OK it would cost – but what price credibility?

    #261772
    Avatar photograysonscolumn
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    • Total Posts 7027

    I’m not entirely sure I can fathom why Fakenham was balloting out at all on Monday. The stabling capacity of 70 is the smallest in the country, I believe, but 50 overnight acceptors is a very long way short of 70.

    Overnight acceptors at Fakenham for 2009 (including eventual non-runners);

    01/01/09 51 gd
    12/01/09 66 gd
    13/02/09 OFF
    13/03/09 55 gs
    13/04/09 57 gd
    05/05/09 57 gf
    17/05/09 53 gf

    23/10/09 57 gf
    17/11/09 54 gd
    30/11/09 50 gs

    I presume it’s the 2m4f hurdle you were balloted out of, Happy, and the field of nine is not by any means the largest to have run over C&D this year – 13 is. It does beg the question as to whether they are having some work done that’s temporarily reduced capacity. Anyone know?

    gc

    Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.

    #261798
    % MAN
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    • Total Posts 5104

    A bit harsh on Fakenham I think – OK the facilities do not match those of Group One courses, nor would you expect them to.

    I would rather have the rustic charms of the likes of Fakenham, Hexham, Taunton etc than the industrial unit pre-fab look and feel of Southwell or Wolverhampton.

    Perhaps I’m in a time warp (although I think at least GC will agree with me) in thinking NH racing has a better ambiance at these tracks that have the rustic feel to them.

    Anyway I would forgive Fakenham almost anything as long as the fish stall remains there and the produce at the Farmers Market at the course on Monday was also excellent.

    The only thing I don’t forgive Fakenham for is the press room which may well be around 30″ long – it’s just a shame it is only about 3′ 6″ wide!!!

    #261813
    Avatar photograysonscolumn
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    • Total Posts 7027

    Quite agree, GC – I have very few complaints about Fakenham from the point of view of the racing experience and facilities. It’s a lovely, other-worldly, quirky day out and far from expensive as they go.

    It’s probably unwise to expect anything too lavish from a course that is so entrenched in the fabric of humble pointing and hunting fare that it was still known as West Norfolk Hunt until 1962; that still raced only six times a year until relatively recently (this year’s 10 meeting programme is amongst its highest ever); and which is still dependent to a greater or lesser extent on golfing / caravanning / conference income to keep in the black.

    I do, however, share Happy’s mystification that balloting out occurred this week. It’s one of two things I don’t quite get about the place at present – the other being why this course hasn’t embraced Easyfix hurdles yet, as arguably no other jumps course in the country needs them so urgently. It’s not as if they don’t know they exist – Easyfix were a visible presence at many East Anglian point-to-points last winter.

    gc

    Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.

    #261815
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    Every jockey who is at a racecourse should have to walk the course 1 hour before racing and post what they feel the ground is riding, this information has to be edited into simple ground english and put on all racing websites for us to view.

    Say you had a list of 20 jockies

    Eddie Ahern Good
    George Baker Soft
    William Buick Good
    N Callan Good
    Chris Catlin Good to soft
    Pat Cosgrave Soft
    Jim Crowley Soft
    Tony Culhane Good
    Silvestre De Sousa Good
    L Dettori Good
    Stephen Donohoe Good
    Steve Drowne Good
    Ted Durcan Firm
    Martin Dwyer Good
    Tom Eaves Good
    Greg Fairley Good to soft
    Joe Fanning Good to soft
    Micky Fenton Good
    Jimmy Fortune Good
    Catherine Gannon Good

    What would your general assement of the ground be? I’d say it was good

    #261819
    Avatar photoTor mentor
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    • Total Posts 262

    The only thing I don’t forgive Fakenham for is the press room which may well be around 30" long – it’s just a shame it is only about 3′ 6" wide!!!

    I presume you mean 30′ Otherwise it is indeed very small.

    #261820
    Avatar photoTor mentor
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    • Total Posts 262

    Every jockey who is at a racecourse should have to walk the course 1 hour before racing and post what they feel the ground is riding, this information has to be edited into simple ground english and put on all racing websites for us to view.

    Say you had a list of 20 jockies

    Eddie Ahern Good
    George Baker Soft
    William Buick Good
    N Callan Good
    Chris Catlin Good to soft
    Pat Cosgrave Soft
    Jim Crowley Soft
    Tony Culhane Good
    Silvestre De Sousa Good
    L Dettori Good
    Stephen Donohoe Good
    Steve Drowne Good
    Ted Durcan Firm
    Martin Dwyer Good
    Tom Eaves Good
    Greg Fairley Good to soft
    Joe Fanning Good to soft
    Micky Fenton Good
    Jimmy Fortune Good
    Catherine Gannon Good

    What would your general assement of the ground be? I’d say it was good

    Yes,I’m sure that a jockey with one ride in the last would love to get there four or five hours early to walk the course.

    #261826
    Avatar photograysonscolumn
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    • Total Posts 7027

    Modify that to a delegation of senior jockeys, or else those with rides in the opening race(s), and there’s the germs of an idea there.

    Possible pratfalls include the possibility of too few jockeys getting to the course as soon as you’d like – those with schooling to do before or a long journey ahead of a very early start to a meeting aren’t going to be as available as you’d like, especially in winter.

    Incidentally, I appreciate there was artistic license in the example, but I think I’d not be in any hurry to book a rider who was calling ground otherwise regarded as good to soft or soft as firm! Ah, there’s a useful by-product of the exercise – highlight the guessers! 8)

    gc

    Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.

    #261831
    Avatar photoDrone
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    • Total Posts 6282

    I doubt any jockey would care to offer an opinion on the going pre-racing

    After the first race no problem:

    Winner: good ground, on the soft side maybe but lovely covering of grass, my lad bounced off it, no one will be using the going as an excuse today

    Loser: soft holding ground, bare patches down the back, lost action on it, needs good going, it will be tough out there today

    #261835
    Silvoir
    Participant
    • Total Posts 270

    We were ballotted out of our preffered race in which only 9 ran.
    In total 50 horses were declared to run. I know of 3 non runners for sure, bringing the total to 47 runners over 6 races. Hardly attractive to the race going public. So, Im agree with Paul. The Clerks should not be led by the management but should be fully independant. We will think twice about running at Fakenham in the future and if a few more owners and trainers do the same then perhaps things may change.

    Happy

    I’ve checked with our Racing Department and you couldn’t have been ballotted out – the safety factor for all races at Fakenham is 16, with the exceptions of novice evetns when it’s 14. With fewer decs than stable capacity the Field Size Limits wouldn’t have kicked in either. Are you sure you were ballotted out?

    If so let me know.

    Kind regards

    Paul

    #261843
    dprp
    Member
    • Total Posts 175

    Whilst it does have its own limitations, at least THE GOING STICK provides quantifiable measure of the ground as opposed to somebodys assessment of how difficult it is to push a walking stick into the ground.

    #261844
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    Simple solution:
    Let a trainer, a jockey and a juorno all measure the ground with the going stick 30 mins before the first race (that becoming the official ground for form purposes) and fine CoC’s heavily if there’s marked difference from the morning call – after allowing for the weather.
    Not only would that give a more accurate and independent reading for posterity, it might also stop CoC’s from calling it what they like initially.

    #261851
    Avatar photorobert99
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    • Total Posts 899

    One NZ clerk uses the only accurate way to measure the going.
    He gallops a set of racehorses before racing and times them.

    I have suggested a positive use for a bunch of retired racehorses to take on these duties – but absolutely no interest.

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