Horses still not out

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This topic contains 28 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  obiwankenobi 5 months ago.

Viewing 14 posts - 16 through 29 (of 29 total)
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  • #1391943
    jackh1092
    jackh1092
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    I listened to Ruby explain it + it’s entirely logical. Heavy horse, stick legs, good ground, unfit, weighing more- increased chance of injury and add to that the fact a horse not fully wound up is probably more likely to injure itself anyway :unsure: The impact on them is greater than the impact on soft ground. I am not saying they can’t run on it + neither was Ruby. He is explaining why trainers aren’t running some of their horses on the better ground first run back. I think they know better than us + to be honest, what benefit does Mullin’s or Elliot have to not run a novice hurdler in a maiden hurdle? What benefit is it to them to wrap a novice hurdler in cotton wool? What benefit does Kelly see in not running his (i presume) first + probably only Gold Cup contender till now? Wouldn’t his owner be asking more questions?

    These NH horses that are being held back like Laurina + Percy etc. have soft + hvy ground form and are suited to them conditions. Laurina is a heavy topped mare – i think the argument on soft ground causing them more injuries is likely wrong.

    If these trainer’s were holding back their Winter horses on softer ground i could see the argument. The fact is this isn’t a normal winter weather wise.

    PS this isn’t being personal to you, everyone wants to see horses race!

    Twitter: Jackh1092
    Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!

    #1391987

    LD73
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    The wrapping up in cotton wool comment was more in regard to the top horses not running and not specifically about novice hurdlers. Wouldn’t disagree with Ruby’s logic but then by the same light wouldn’t there still be an injury risk (granted, obviously different from being jarred up) to the same horse running in more testing conditions where a much greater effort/exertion is required?

    Some of these horses running on soft & heavy ground is all they have know (especially if they have come from France), so how would a trainer know that they can’t handle good ground if they have a preconceived idea in their head that it needs soft and is never tried on anything quicker?

    A high knee action as a general rule of thumb would indicate a need for a softer surface but it is not an automatic given (Triptych had an extremely high knee action yet she not only won on good but also good to firm as well – I know different codes but you get my drift) and it is not like horses over the years haven’t made complete fools of their trainers in doing something they thought and stated until they were blue in the face that they couldn’t do.

    Never said it was being personal to me, I just feel that sometimes trainers are being overly cautious in assuming things that they might not have any real hard and fast evidence to support what they are assuming.

    100% agree that it is not a normal winter but then again if every race meeting was currently being run in hock deep winter ground you can be certain that most trainers would be bemoaning the fact that they want to run their better horses but can’t do it until they get better ground.

    #1391991
    jackh1092
    jackh1092
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    Never said it was being personal to me, I just feel that sometimes trainers are being overly cautious in assuming things that they might not have any real hard and fast evidence to support what they are assuming.

    I was just making it clear i wasn’t having an argument with you directly lol.

    it is not like horses over the years haven’t made complete fools of their trainers in doing something they thought and stated until they were blue in the face that they couldn’t do.

    Yes but its their first run of the year, it’s different in my opinion, they want the horse to last more than one run this season. What happens if they stick Presenting Percy out on good ground this weekend and he comes back jarred and needs time off which puts a cloud over his GC participation. They are just taking a precaution, which can be expected.

    so how would a trainer know that they can’t handle good ground if they have a preconceived idea in their head that it needs soft and is never tried on anything quicker?

    I don’t think its necessarily they don’t think they will handle it, it’s they don’t want to start off on it. If it was their third run of the season or dare i say it a festival race beit Cheltenham, Aintree etc. i would say they’d run them. At the end of the day that’s what all connections want- festival winners.

    I have no evidence on this, but what about Master Dino the other day? Comes back with an injury, having never raced on better than French soft (not sure how that compares). Ballsy decision to come here in the first place to race him, and it was fascinating, but is it possible starting him off or even racing him on better ground has helped cause the issue? I don’t know the answer!

    Wouldn’t disagree with Ruby’s logic but then by the same light wouldn’t there still be an injury risk (granted, obviously different from being jarred up) to the same horse running in more testing conditions where a much greater effort/exertion is required?

    I don’t know the exact answer to this, but i would presume a horse that is used to running on softer going, they will have less chance of an injury on that than starting on good or better.

    Twitter: Jackh1092
    Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!

    #1391995
    KevMc
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    Most of the decent trainers these days use deep AW gallops, which conditions the horses muscles to deal with more strain. This helps the horse tenfold when it comes to running in soft/heavy ground.

    The reverse is that the AW will help strengthen but not prepare the bones of a horse for quick ground. Hence the huge fear of jarring up the horse, breaking down etc.

    ————————–

    Jack couldn’t agree more with your view of the watering. The thing with the courses is that if Tipp (for example) need to water to get GS/Soft ground for meetings and their all important schooling races why don’t they? The revenue they must be losing out of this must be of significance.

    The argument is that when the weather changes the ground won’t cope and it’ll go soft/heavy, is that a bad thing? There must be hundreds of horses wanting deeper ground and they’ve not seen a sniff of it all season.

    I see why the likes of the G1 tracks like Punchestown want to be cautious as they have huge racing later on in the spring to worry about, but the rest should be chucking on water and thinking of the here and now in my opinion.

    #1392014

    homersimpson
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    Next Destination anyone? This was supposedly Ruby’s big hope for the season.

    He’s out for season

    Thanks Jack. Missed that one.

    #1392017

    greenasgrass
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    • Total Posts 1997

    Good point about the training gallops Kev….watching footage of Mullins’ horses on his gallops I was struck by how deep the going is. Many trainers have said they aren’t using their own grass gallops at the moment too.

    It would be great if some courses could water…mind you after a dry summer as well stocks might be low….and may need to be conserved to keep ground raceable at all later. Do courses generally have their own supplies or use mains water with its associated cost and social implications…Joe Public not gonna like it if public water is dumped on the local racecourse all winter then he gets hosepipe banned in the spring if no rain comes. The consumption of one racecourse would probably be tiny compared to tens of thousands of surrounding households but it’s all about perception. Is “grey water” used does anyone know?

    #1392019

    greenasgrass
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    • Total Posts 1997

    As far as ye good old days are concerned- are there any stats re breakdowns/ dropouts for the season? Everyone is going to remember the big name horses that raced and won frequently for years but who is going to remember the names of any exciting young horses in the 60s-80s who got wrecked racing on firm ground and never got as far as the festival novice hurdles let alone an all aged festival chase.

    #1392020

    clivexx
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    I suppose it might not matter to owners with big strings but this “its all about one day” with barely a hint of a run before the Cheltenham obsession is a totally miserablist way of owning horses. i dont get it and no wonder smaller time owners drift increasingly towards the AW

    Its even more baffling when you consider that an arm and a legs worth of fees and doing nothing more than staring at your horse in a field for a year can be well and truly fcked by one badly taken hurdle or a lose horse

    Strange sport at times

    #1392027
    robnorth
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    Greenasgrass said

    Do courses generally have their own supplies or use mains water with its associated cost and social implications

    Sources of irrigation water vary. My local courses:

    Musselburgh have a license to take water from the mains supply. They water by means of a tractor towed bowser and spray bar. They used to use sprinkler heads back in the day, but if the wind blew strongly off the sea Linkfield Road got soaked and the course didn’t!
    Perth have an abstraction license to take water from the Tay (they get first dibs on the supply before the folk of Perth whose supply is abstracted near Gowans Terrace works). I presume they use bowser and spray bar.
    Hamilton have a course reservoir and water using bowser and spray bar.
    Kelso have their own reservoir (near the furlong pole) and water using bowser and spray bar.

    #1392060
    Nathan Hughes
    Nathan Hughes
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    What ever happened to Captain Americo..?

    Don't Eat The Pie and Don't Buy The S*n
    #1392092
    robnorth
    robnorth
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    Captain Americo went pointing for Briony Ewart and was retired after falling in a Perth Hunter Chase in 2014.

    #1392093

    greenasgrass
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    • Total Posts 1997

    Anybody know anything about the wellbeing or otherwise of Paul Nicholls’ Capitaine?

    #1392208
    DiamondGeezer
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    Mention of Whisper in NH’s Unibet Blog this weekend

    He’s not back in training just yet, but there may be some good news as he had his leg scanned last week and they were very pleased with the results so we are considering bringing him back into training, although I have to properly discuss it with Dai Walters. Obviously, we won’t get him back in time for Cheltenham but we might be able to have a look at something further down the line; we don’t really know at the moment. All I can say is that the scans were very encouraging.

    #1392350

    obiwankenobi
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    • Total Posts 323

    My experience of running NH horses on faster ground is that ultimately the horses tendon frays with continual cantering, this is not racing, but general day to day work. If you imagine a bungee rope with many many tiny little long bands making it up – that is what the inside of a tendon looks like. When the horses foot hits the ground on firmer ground two things happen, one the weight of the horse when it lands over the hurdle stretches the tendon, in soft ground this is not so extensively stretched, but on firmer ground the tendons stretches more. The little bands start to fray and snap, this causes small holes, which ultimately begin to break down the tendon. The second issue is the hoof goes into the ground and there is little give in the ground for the hoof to slide and take away some of the impact, causing jarring. Another contributing factor is that the unevenness of other hoof prints in firmer going make the horse land a foot that is not straight and this sideways movement can injure the suspensory ligaments. We had one horse completely ruined after one run on good, good to firm in places. Years ago NH horses used to be less than 100% fit first time out and would run themselves fit, now they are trained to win first time out and ultimately that must have an effect on the wear and tear caused. There was an excellent programme called Inside Natures Giants Racehorses. They showed with a real leg, how far a horses tendon could stretch under enormous pressure, they then touched the tendon as if struck by the hoof behind and literally the entire tendon snapped.

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