May 3, 2007 at 20:38 #55600davidjohnsonMember
- Total Posts 4491
I think the point that Zorro was making is that in effect ratings for turf and dirt are somewhat arbitrary because the 2 entities don’t cross over.
For example, you know whether your ratings for maidens are too high or low when the horses start running against each other in handicaps. There is little crossover of dirt horses taking on the best turf horses because one or the other will be allowing their opponent optimum conditions.May 3, 2007 at 20:57 #55601
<br>Right, you can apply the same logic to Japanese horses who never meet our top European horses, does this stop up rating Deep Impact 127 and Dylan Thomas 124
No, does it feck
(Edited by empty wallet at 9:59 pm on May 3, 2007)May 3, 2007 at 21:37 #55602davidjohnsonMember
- Total Posts 4491
I’m happy to debate with you if you lose the attitude. I agree the same logic applies, and with it comes the same problems that you cannot really be sure whether your levels are right until the horses meet each other on and formlines can be established.
You only need to look at the problems with British and Irish hurdlers to see the problems that occur when races are handicapped at different levels and when using different weight for age scales. Clearly Britain and Ireland have different ideas as to how fast at 120 hurdler can run.<br>
(Edited by davidjohnson at 10:41 pm on May 3, 2007)May 3, 2007 at 22:05 #55603
Sorry David, it wasn’t meant as it reads m8
<br>Thats all crossing over does, it gives confirmation, it does not mean you awarded the wrong rating in the first place
<br>I can understand there would be problems if using different levels, WFA’s, but if your compiling, you can use your own levels and WFA scale
In fact, a system like that probably favours the do it yourself handicapper
(Edited by empty wallet at 11:18 pm on May 3, 2007)May 3, 2007 at 22:16 #55604
Thank you, David. Perfect explanation.<br>Empty, Japanese horses often race against Europeans. Didn’t you follow the Dubai World Cup? Or recent Japan Cups? Or even last year’s Arc?<br>You can compare their form with European turf form. You can’t do the same with dirt and turf – anywhere. That’s why I’m looking forward to the adoption by America of artificial surfaces. Then we’re almost certain to get form crossovers which will make quality comparisons meaningful.<br>Meanwhile all I’m saying is that I’m unconvinced by the assumption of dirt supremacy. In fact I suspect turf racing is of higher quality. It’s my guess, as the official handicappers’ presentation of higher ratings to the dirt horses is theirs – and, it seems, yours. It can be nothing more.<br>Do you think Invasor could win the Arc? I don’t. We’ll never know though, will we?<br>Sorry if I seemed sarcastic. I thought you were trying to condescend. If not, let’s shake hands, virtually.<br>This is an interesting subject.<br>
(Edited by Zorro at 10:40 am on May 4, 2007)May 3, 2007 at 22:22 #55605davidbradyMember
- Total Posts 3901
Unless the horse runs in handicaps, then any sort of rating is much pretty irrelevant anyway, irrespective of whoever decides on the final figure.May 3, 2007 at 22:29 #55606PompeteMember
- Total Posts 2391
Sorry if I seemed sarcastic.
Zorro, you haven’t. But, you, Empty and David have hightlighted what an impossible subject this is…nevertheless, still very interesting and fair play to you all for posting.May 3, 2007 at 22:40 #55607
Quote: from Zorro on 11:16 pm on May 3, 2007[br]Thank you, David. Perfect explanation.<br>Empty, Japanese horses often race against Europeans. Didn’t you follow the Dubai World Cup? Or recent Japan Cups? Or even last year’s Arc?
think we’ll have to agree to disagree, before i say something i may regret
How you can conclude or assume turf racing is of higher quality, when as you say there’s been no crossovers to dirt to confirm the Dirt rating is lower is a bit of mystery,
Your logic does not compute
(Edited by empty wallet at 2:50 am on May 4, 2007)May 4, 2007 at 00:39 #55608
(Edited by empty wallet at 3:15 am on May 4, 2007)May 4, 2007 at 21:09 #55609AdrianParticipant
- Total Posts 1041
Just as a trivial aside to this debate I’d like to bring your attention to the Chris Wall trained Cimyla.
So far in his career he has run 22 times of which only 13 have been on turf. He has raced on the Polytrack 8 times (3 at Wolverhampton, 4 at Lingfield and once at Kempton). He has also raced on Cagnes Sur Mer’s artificial surface.
He did run in Dubai this Spring but all three runs were on turf so he’s not run on dirt as such.
Tomorrow he contests the Mervyn le Roi Handicap (Gr.2) at Hollywood Park on their new Cushion Track surface.
It will be interesting to see how he gets on.May 4, 2007 at 22:18 #55610
Empty, you use the word ‘conclude’. I used the word ‘suspect’. Not intellectual dishonesty I’m sure. I expect you just made a mistake.
(Edited by Zorro at 11:19 pm on May 4, 2007)May 4, 2007 at 22:21 #55611
Thanks Adrian. Who trains him now?May 5, 2007 at 01:27 #55612
Quote: from Zorro on 11:18 pm on May 4, 2007[br]Empty, you use the word ‘conclude’. I used the word ‘suspect’. Not intellectual dishonesty I’m sure. I expect you just made a mistake.
(Edited by Zorro at 11:19 pm on May 4, 2007)
<br>I used the words "conclude or assume"
assume = a synonym for suspect as you probably know
Not intellectual dishonesty I’m sure, I expect you just made a mistake
(Edited by empty wallet at 2:42 am on May 5, 2007)May 5, 2007 at 08:46 #55613
You have been misinformed, Empty. I’d chuck away that dictionary, whichever one it is. ‘Assume’ is not a synonym for ‘suspect’.<br>Why bother with a "synonym" – particularly an incorrect one – anyway? :)May 5, 2007 at 11:13 #55614
Quote: from Zorro on 9:46 am on May 5, 2007[br]You have been misinformed, Empty. I’d chuck away that dictionary, whichever one it is. ‘Assume’ is not a synonym for ‘suspect’.<br>Why bother with a "synonym" – particularly an incorrect one – anyway? :)
Yes, Thesaurus must be wrong Zorro
<br>assume= without proof
suspect =with little or no proof
<br> maybe Online dictionary definitions are wrong too
(Edited by empty wallet at 12:15 pm on May 5, 2007)
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