Home › Forums › Archive Topics › Cheltenham Archive › Cheltenham 2017 › Gold Cup 2017
- This topic has 544 replies, 77 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 1 month ago by
milbear0.
- AuthorPosts
- January 29, 2017 at 11:52 #1284461
Yes, I counted 5 aswell…which is why I said he got stuck into him…I think for a horse who has been having it all his own way against inferior opposition and not getting stuck into…that will definitely leave it’s mark for Cheltenham…
Also, when comparing times I’m looking at the final figure…I’m not splitting it up and comparing with other races…Coneygree’s Gold Cup win was as true a run race as you could get, a proper end to end gallop with a horse out in front jumping quickly and accurately the whole way, only just slowing up jumping the last which I put down to jockey inexperience and not wanting to fall at the last…I didn’t see many signs of a drop in pace yesterday, it looked a fairly true run race to me and it’s a FACT it was a second quicker when they crossed the line…and it’s a FACT it was a shorter race in distance…also how does using Smad Place coming third beaten 17 lengths equate it to a 175+ rating? He’s been beaten a lot further than that in the last two Gold Cups and has been a bit below par this season…a fine example of a horse who’s just not good enough at the top level…
I may well be wasting my money on Djakadam, only time will tell…he’s come 2nd in two Gold Cups though, to two very good horses, and two horses who would both take care of Thistlecrack in a Gold Cup from all I’ve seen….on that basis he’s got to be right up there on festival form alone…
January 29, 2017 at 12:48 #1284473I’d always been suspicious of Thistlecrack’s wonder-horse status, which had seemed mainly based on his superiority as a staying hurdler, although that is the least competitive division of NH racing, and graduates to fences rarely live up to the hype. Then I was delighted to be proved wrong by his performance in The King George. But in retrospect, I was too impressed by his acceleration away from the field around the final bend, and didn’t take note how the rest of an ordinary field (Cue Card underperforming) finished close-up in the end.
Many Clouds was great warrior, but has been well-beaten by Gold Cup standard horses before, so I think the wonder-horse theory has been burst.
Having said all that, with Coneygree and the Don and Vautour absent, and Djakadam perhaps not as good this year, he is still a worthy favourite for the GC, and it will be a great achievement for a novice.January 29, 2017 at 13:05 #1284479Many Clouds was great warrior, but has been well-beaten by Gold Cup standard horses before, so I think the wonder-horse theory has been burst.
Let’s look at the last 5 8/9yo Grand National winners.
Hedgehunter, 9yo. Finished 2nd in the Gold Cup the following season.
Comply Or Die, 9yo. Finished 2nd in the Grand National the following season.
Mon Mome, 9yo. Finished 3rd in the Gold Cup the following season.
Many Clouds, 8yo. Won the Cotswold.
Rule The World, 9yo. Not had a chance to do anything yet.
It is not unheard of whatsoever for 8/9yo Grand National winners to perform very well in Graded events over 3m+.
January 29, 2017 at 13:58 #1284507I wouldn’t say Tom got stuck into Thistlecrack that much, he hardly threw the kitchen sink at him
It was only when he realised that Many Clouds was not going away that he drew the whip inside the final furlong. I’m sure in Toms mind he wouldn’t want to leave Thistlecrack’s Gold Cup behind yesterday and I reckon if he wanted to he could of been a lot more aggressive before and after the last.Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
January 29, 2017 at 16:08 #1284551I once again have taken some money on Minella Rocco for the Gold Cup NRNB. I rewatched his last race at Aintree and he would have been very close to Many Clouds there and the Gold Cup should suit him better.
January 29, 2017 at 16:29 #1284556I think Many Clouds had him beat that day, but I’ve got Minella Rocco EW and win at 40s and I’m very happy.
January 29, 2017 at 16:36 #1284560I think Scu will now hit the front and go on at hell of a lot sooner in future. The horse is best when out front galloping and jumping them into the ground and will win the Gold Cup with those tactics.
January 29, 2017 at 21:15 #1284641Not much I can add to what’s been said. Zark’s point is a good one: had he missed Kempton and yesterday was his debut in open company, his horsebox would have been so crammed with plaudits he wouldn’t have got in.
A couple of interesting angles from Simon Rowlands on his time analysis: rails movements meant the race was a furlong longer than advertised (I read an exact figure of 248 yards longer), and the overall race time was solid. So he stayed the Gold Cup trip in bad ground at proper pace, erasing the stamina doubts. Was he outstayed or outgunned by a more experienced horse? I don’t know. I’ve said before (and it was echoed by others), Scu was doing the horse no favours winning easing up all the time. Thistlecrack needed riding out to teach him what it’s like to come under at least a degree of pressure.
Thistlecrack ran down the last and probably lost a length (P Taaffe once said that a length at the last was worth a hundred yards because it took a hundred yards for a horse to regain that deficit).
Many Clouds got the run on him after the last and it almost seemed he had to work out for himself what was needed to get back in front, which he did. Did he falter late through exhaustion or pure lack of experience in the heat of battle? I don’t know. I do know the post-race 11/4 I heard quoted was an overreaction. Given decent ground and, crucially, no ill effects from what was a very hard race (I suspect Smad Place and Many Clouds left their Gold Cup chances here in the past two runnings of this), he is still, for me, the most likely winner.
January 29, 2017 at 21:30 #1284642Zarks point on Thistlecracks performance if he hadn’t gone KG is a good one.
I think he is gonna romp home on better ground and will be happy getting a better price on the day than odds on.
Not worried about my KG and GC double at 5/1 losing at all. Losing yesterday in that manner to MC who almost definetely ran one of his best ever races, is nothing to be ashamed of.
It’s going to be a poor KG with an above average horse in.
Thistlecrack by 8 lengths I reckon
January 29, 2017 at 22:02 #1284648A fine analyst on twitter (@StopwatchRacing) writes that the real pace in the Cotswold was between 10 out and three out: Thistlecrack covered that just over 1 second slower than Un De Sceaux. From 3 out to the post he was just half a second slower than UDS and a second faster than Foxtail Hill whose burden was 24lbs lighter.
January 29, 2017 at 22:06 #1284652One thing we did learn from yesterday was that Thistlecrack is not a 2/1 shot for the Gold cup.On March 17th if the betting was 4/1 ‘Thistlecrack’, 5/1 ‘Native River’,6/1 ‘Djakadam’,7/1 ‘Cue Card’,10/1 bar and I had to have a free £1000 win bet only I would have to seriously consider ‘Cue Cards’ age,’Djakadams’ seconditis and ‘Thistlecracks’ will to battle so it would be on Native River,he is probably the nearest horse comparable to ‘Many Clouds’ who stayed forever and also battled.
January 29, 2017 at 22:08 #1284653Thistlecrack ran down the last and probably lost a length (P Taaffe once said that a length at the last was worth a hundred yards because it took a hundred yards for a horse to regain that deficit).
That’s a useful quote, cheers.
January 29, 2017 at 22:10 #1284655A couple of interesting angles from Simon Rowlands on his time analysis: rails movements meant the race was a furlong longer than advertised (I read an exact figure of 248 yards longer), and the overall race time was solid. So he stayed the Gold Cup trip in bad ground at proper pace
The exact distance given on the BHA site is 3m 2f 28y….so 82y short of the GC trip…
January 29, 2017 at 23:21 #1284680If the going is good (good to soft) in March it will feel like a two and half miles race in comparison to yesterday for the Thistlecrack.
Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
January 29, 2017 at 23:27 #1284683One thing we did learn from yesterday was that Thistlecrack is not a 2/1 shot for the Gold cup.On March 17th if the betting was 4/1 ‘Thistlecrack’, 5/1 ‘Native River’,6/1 ‘Djakadam’,7/1 ‘Cue Card’,10/1 bar and I had to have a free £1000 win bet only I would have to seriously consider ‘Cue Cards’ age,’Djakadams’ seconditis and ‘Thistlecracks’ will to battle so it would be on Native River,he is probably the nearest horse comparable to ‘Many Clouds’ who stayed forever and also battled.
Blimey Gord 4/1!
I’d be playing that heavy if he was that price!
9/4 to 7/4 ish on the day I reckon.
January 30, 2017 at 12:12 #1284747Other possibility is Thistlecrack wasn’t quite right. Alary apparently wasn’t right last week, may be something in the yard.
Ginge, Alary scoped badly and was coughing after the race. Tizzard said that they moved him to another area of the yard as a precaution because he was close to Thistlecrack, NR & CC.
I read it in one of the trade papers this week.
That means Thistlecrack could’ve picked something up before Alary was moved. However, it wasn’t a bad enough performance at Cheltanham to be a likely scenario, Botchy.
Value Is EverythingJanuary 30, 2017 at 15:51 #1284795To me Thistlecrack is still the most likely winner. I thought his jumping wasn’t great on Saturday specifically at a couple of key moments. He seemed to get caught behind on the back foot a little bit when he should have been coasting to the front to pour it on. I think if the ground is decent on gold cup day and he can jump a bit more fluently like he did in the King George, he’ll get to the front earlier and ease away from them. If I had to pick something to be running him down late on it would be Minella Rocco.
- AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.