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MikkyMo73, have you considered Border Edge was the best horse in the race on the day? At least one ratings service had this horse significantly ahead of the field. A top rated horse being given a positive ride, not surprised it won.
The jockeys who occupy the top division of the jockeys table are the ones who ride the best horses for the biggest trainers on a regular basis. The jockeys table is not a measure of jockeyship. It has more to do with retainers and good agents securing the best opportunities for the jockeys.
MikkyMo73, have you considered Border Edge was the best horse in the race on the day? At least one ratings service had this horse significantly ahead of the field. A top rated horse being given a positive ride, not surprised it won.
The jockeys who occupy the top division of the jockeys table are the ones who ride the best horses for the biggest trainers on a regular basis. The jockeys table is not a measure of jockeyship. It has more to do with retainers and good agents securing the best opportunities for the jockeys.
That has nothing to do with my point with all due respect. If you have read my posts on this thread carefully, you will have noticed that I said ‘hats off’ to Callan for that ride. I am not complaining about who won the race, I was complaining about at least 6 jockeys getting the tactics wrong completely by holding their horses up way too far off the pace. And like I also said in another post on this thread, my opinion was backed up by the on course commentator, Simon Mapletoft and Tony Ennis in the ATR studio – who all agreed that very few got into the race because the race shows that when the jockeys in the rear of the field started their surges, the front runners had gone way beyond recall.
This thread was not started off in any way to have a go at any jockey as it was started immediately after the 2:15. It just so happened that one of those jockeys who gave a horse a bad, no terrible, no diabolical ride in that race was Jamie Spencer – who held up Takes Tutu at the very rear all the way around and then tried to make up 20 lengths or so in the final few furlongs. Spencer then went on to use the exaggerated waiting tactics a few more times in the day on very fancied runners without any success, and on all his All Weather rides he attempted to make ground up the inside rail, whihc is often slower than the strip of dirt down the middle of the track.
I wasn’t bothered about the winner Wallace, never mentioned the winner once, and have no complaints whatsoever that Border Edge won – my point was purely to stress that I am getting fed up of jockeys trying to win ‘ride of the week’ every horse they ride by over doing certain tactics. As you know it hurts even more when your money as down, as mine was, and that was about the 5th or 6th bet i’ve had this week where a jockey had over done the waiting tactics. The horses I backed may well have been beaten anyway, but at least I can stomach them getting beat on merit if they are given the best possible chance of winning.
Mike
OK MikkyMo73 I see where you are coming from. Maybe the other jockeys underestimated the 20/1 rag out in front!
I still wonder how Spencer managed to become jockey champion two years ago.
Perhaps by riding more winners than the others?
I know it’s a bit of a ‘Taboo’ to talk out of one’s pocket….so I’ll talk out of my Wifey’s instead.
She got a ‘Tip’ for a horse called Vivid Exposure in the 6.15 in Sligo on thursday and asked me to back it for her. Naturally I watched the race with interest and the ride Fran Berry gave this horse was disgraceful. He had his mount placed widest of the field all the way of the 1m4f trip, presumably searching for better ground. Ridiculously wide really. On a tight track like Sligo, the horse had to cover a very significant extra distance in search of the ‘better ground’. So much so as to more than just nullify the advantage gained by running on the fresh ground. A distinct disadvantage imo. All though the horse didn’t quite cover an extra "5 MILES" as M Chapman, of ATR, stated directly after the race…..
Judging pace on a horse must be difficult. I have never tried it on horseback but find it hard enough from the stands unless I have a stopwatch. It is clearly sometimes beyond even talented "straight" jockeys to get it right.
There are plenty who can’t judge pace while riding but there are just as many, if not more, that can.
Certainly in Australia and to a lesser (much! ) extent Singapore. If they are taught when an apprentice by someone who knows what they are doing and insists that they come back with their times after every ride, there’s no reason why anyone can’t learn.
There are a number of jockeys and trackriders who have an internal clock. I was lucky and was taught by the master of it (Theo Green) and can still judge a sectional with the naked eye and be very close to the watch. It’s a great way to win an easy bet
If the riders put the effort into it they could all judge pace to the last tick, there’s no real excuse it ain’t rocket science.
The variety of tracks and surfaces in UK is a significant factor. Running 12 sec furlongs may be fine one day but not another on the same track. It may be too slow on one track and too fast on another at the same trip and on similar going.
But an interesting point nonetheless.
Dead right PF,
the different tracks do show significant difference in times – we have fibresand and turf here and in 12 months we should have the fibresand replaced by either a Poly or a Tapeta track. – Different times again! 
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There are a number of jockeys and trackriders who have an internal clock. I was lucky and was taught by the master of it (Theo Green) and can still judge a sectional with the naked eye and be very close to the watch.
Interesting stuff,KT.
I often find I disagree with a course commentator’s reading of the pace, but only by instinct rather than any science.
Are there any specific pointers we should look for?There are a number of jockeys and trackriders who have an internal clock. I was lucky and was taught by the master of it (Theo Green) and can still judge a sectional with the naked eye and be very close to the watch.
Interesting stuff,KT.
I often find I disagree with a course commentator’s reading of the pace, but only by instinct rather than any science.
Are there any specific pointers we should look for?Not really Reet, for me it’s a matter of always watching a race with a watch, timing it so you have the correct record (all sectionals). Then it’s easy to compare them to what you have clocked in your head (and written in your racebook
.It’s probably easier on a horse I think – and I’m sure anyone who rides in endurance races will know exactly how well/quick their horse is going, but to learn it by watching is just practice really, anyone can do it – I mean if a Jambo can anyone can
If your instinct means you are more often right than wrong – you probably have one of those internal clocks ticking away and with a bit of practice you’ll be winning bets as well
I still wonder how Spencer managed to become jockey champion two years ago.
Perhaps by riding more winners than the others?
LOL! It was ment as a joke Robnorth. I remember that many people (inclusive myself) have been complaining about some Spencer, but at the end of the season he was champion. And then we all said, well he can’t be so bad.
Some time ago the Animal Health Trust? organised some pace trials at Newmarket and the top jockies of the day were asked to ride a certain furlong in 12 seconds – none of them managed anywhere near it in 3 attempts and the extreme range was about 10-14 seconds.
Like the failure to walk the course, I don’t think there is any understanding of pace/ tactics in UK & Ireland and its importance, either by jockies or trainers. Many trainers still do not even time their horses on the gallops. Each, sheeplike, just copies the bad race habits of the others. Riders such as Lester Piggott, Steve Cauthen, Scobie Breasley remain extremely rare exceptions.If you have any doubts about the jockeys ability walk away,wait for another day!!!!
You can only blame yourself for backing a horse who has a sub-standard pilot.
They don’t clock their horses??????? Good grief
Hmmmmmmmmm maybe a job in the offing there….hi all, new on here.
backed zidane last week, and after slatting my pool cue at the tele in the pub after thinking frank spencer had over done the waiting tactics, i stand by what i said at the time. he rides nearly every race as if its a hollywood movie. he’s cr@*p.
then again, flat racings for girls. can’t wait till proper racing starts in october, ahhh the joy of seeing A.P. getting stuck into a horse.
) extent Singapore. If they are taught when an apprentice by someone who knows what they are doing and insists that they come back with their times after every ride, there’s no reason why anyone can’t learn.
the different tracks do show significant difference in times – we have fibresand and turf here and in 12 months we should have the fibresand replaced by either a Poly or a Tapeta track. – Different times again! 
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