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Realise you may be playing devils advocate, Greenasgrass – but…
If a horse is continuing to race and can’t breath properly, wouldn’t it be “ethically dubious” not to give it an op that has a good chance of improving its breathing?
There are risks with any surgery, may be we should ban all surgery to humans then – just in case it goes wrong?
They’re also out for the count during op’s, so they don’t know the surgery is taking place – and in a padded, safe as possible enviroment.
If you have the opportunity, it’s well worth seeing what’s involved at an equine surgery. May be at an open day at one of the training centres.
Value Is EverythingTrue; the cases I’m talking about aren’t the ones roaring like a bull or gurgling and stopping. I mean the ones where they don’t make a noise and the palate or larynx really doesn’t look too bad at all and there is a strong chance that’s not the reason for underperformance- it may be simply that the horse isn’t as good as they thought or doesn’t stay as far as they thought. Granted I have not seen treadmill/overland scopes performed so I don’t know at what level of apparent abnormality surgery would be performed.
I think soft palate cautery is done under standing sedation rather than GA. I confess ignorance as to the amount of pain afterwards; if they just take a bit off and give it bute after, probably not much, but I keep reading that the idea is to stiffen the palate as well. I would have thought you could only cause enough fibrous scarring to stiffen the tissue by traumatising it.
I suspect that the end result of all this could be the banning of wind ops. They’re ethically questionable anyway; if a significant percentage of horses cannot stand up to training without their breathing apparatus breaking down, should they be racing at all, or even in training?
What if there is an abnormality which is being fixed by the operation ?
They’re here to stay, in my opinion. More information in the public domain could even result in progress and improved methods.
Most horses don’t win after them but many finish their races better. When considering one for the purposes of betting, I need to have seen the horse travel and jump well in a previous race, just not “ get home “. A wind op won’t make a horse suddenly jump like Sprinter Sacre and, like almost every other stat in horse racing, it has to be used in moderation and conjunction with others to be useful.
What if there is an abnormality which is being fixed by the operation ?
Then the horses will perform better postop, the stallions in their pedigree will become more popular, and the whole bloody problem will be perpetuated down the generations. If wind ops were banned then horses who could breathe without surgical assistance would win- even if they were genetically a bit slower- and within a few generations we might have a genetically healthier population of thoroughbreds.
The paradox is that as veterinary medicine and surgery advances, the better to fix unsound wind and limb, horses with rubbish health genetics can get back on the racecourse and win so in a weird way better vetting = worse horses, in the end.This intiative to make trainers report wind op lets everyone know. Therefore, am sure this will identify stallions passing on wind problems and that can in turn improve the breed.
Value Is EverythingI agree with the opinion that horses with breathing problems shouldn’t be racing. And if you would identify a top stallion as a major source of passing on wind problems, do you think that people would stop breeding with it?
Let’s say there is a high profile stallion owned by the “Boys in Blue” (it doesn’t matter which Boys and which Blue) and it would have to be banned from breeding because it passes on rubbish genetics. Does anyone think that this will happen? I think the major breeding operations have too much influence on the sport and they don’t care about fragile bones, inbreeding, wind ops and so on…
The only thing that is mentioned first is the average sales price of a stallions progeny and not the genetic problems that occur during their racing careers.
So if a horse can’t perform as an athlete with it’s original constitution (the one he i born with), then no modifications should be made and the horse shouldn’t be on the track.The thing is, though, Ex Ruby Light, that up to now the powerful stallion people have thwarted information on wind soundness being made public. The ITBA used to publish lists of stallions that had wind soundness certs, but this was magically withdrawn a few years back. It was not a perfect tool, because some sound stallions can throw unsound stock, and vice versa, but the shroud of secrecy around such matters is unpalatable. A person wrote to the Irish Field a while back, to complain that his question on stallion soundness had been brushed aside by an ITBA panel (a panel chaired by the Irish Field editor), and his letter was similarly dismissed by the paper. it has become virtually impossible to get information: there is simply no onus on stallion owners to tell breeders whether their horse is sound. This move to transparency can only be a good thing, and at least it will give breeders visibility. I am reliably informed that stallion people are quite rattled by the move, and there has to be a reason for that.
Whoever owned the stallion does not matter. Breathing problems mean the average number of years a horse is effective over is reduced and there’s a much lower chance of the horse reaching anywhere near their full potential. Plus there’s the cost of wind ops to take in to consideration. All need to be taken in to account for anyone sending their horse to a particular stallion. Conformation and how fluent an action a foal/young horse has is important to owners because the better those attributes are the more likely the horse is of remaining sound and/or reaching its full potential. It’ll be exactly the same with stallions whose progeny fail for their wind. It’ll bring stud fees of poor wind stallions down and importantly with fewer people wanting to use them. People won’t have any choice but to take notice.
Value Is EverythingNaming and shaming: Shantou is noted as a particularly bad stallion as far as breathing problems in the progeny as concerned. Shouldn’t be passing on his genes IMO.
Anyone know if this is purely for British trained horses? Do Irish horses need to report wind ops before racing in Britain?
Value Is EverythingIt applies to all horses from overseas running in Britain, Ginger.
No Drofats you clearly don’t know Gary Moore ! I am probably in the best position to comment on his quote regarding ashtray and motorbike !! I co-own horses trained by Gary and some have had wind ops and it has not made an iota of a difference to their performances. Occasionally it does work and occasionally it doesn’t. I would hate to think that a punter would bet on a horse simply because it has had a wind op.
Gary is one of the most honest, funniest people I have met in y life and his family are the same.I am always asking questions about his horses ( not ine) and he will always answer them. He is an extremely shy man and I can see why some people think he is miserable when they have only seen him on TV but once he gets to know you he really comes out of his shell. He has given me 11 winners, 7 with this gorgeous boy Good luck charm in my photo. Look out for hi at Brighton this season.I would hate to think that a punter would bet on a horse simply because it has had a wind op
Don’t worry, we’d have to be living on Mars for the news that wind ops don’t immediately turn them all into winners not to have reached and penetrated our thick skulls.
The ops don’t always work but there must be, on average, a statistically significant chance that they will improve performance. You wouldn’t spend your hard-earned on subjecting the sentient being that you own to an operation that you thought would be statistically likely to make zero difference …would you? We are punters, we’re more interested in probabilities and weighing up each factor rather than blindly saying “Oh it has blinkers on/a new jockey/ a wind op, ignore the other factors and lump the cash on”.
It’s not “confusing for punters” any more than understanding the headgear symbols on the card. Ok I’d like it if we knew which of the 5 categories of procedure (or combo) the horse has had but the “WS” is a good start. It just levels the playing field a bit more for those of us who have no inside connections.
Bizarre post a couple back.
“Gary Moore gives me inside info so I think he’s a top bloke” basically?
Ninahagen you are correct I don’t know him and if you know him and he is as you say very nice and charming then fair enough however his comment is still poor because the more information a punter gets the better and more informed decision they can make and it is not up to Moore to decide that. If a punter wants to back or not back a horse because of a wind up that is up to them.
He should think of the betterment of racing rather than what he thinks punters should or should not know.
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