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Out of interest who are your "legends" of flat racing sberry? Nijinsky doesn’t qualify either i take, just another good "younger horse" even though along with STS and Frankel he crushed all comers including older horses?
Horses like Ouija Board, Persian Punch, Zenyatta, horses that are allowed to mature and prove their greatness over a period of years rather than claim it on a short campaign as a younger horse.
So in summary you would rate Oujia Board better than Zarkava, and Persian Punch better than Sea The Stars and Nijinsky, because they raced for a longer time? Not a Dayjur fan either then? Dancing Brave?
Strange attitude to have imo – perhaps you’d be better watching NH exclusively because the flat has always been the same and always will be.
You know that’s not what I said but you are entitled to your opinions as am I, they don’t have to be right or wrong.
You are quite, and i apologise for getting overly sarcastic. Does seem a bit odd to me though – surely you can’t be serious that Sea The Stars and Frankel are purely "good younger horses"?
No, they’re the best of their generation but it is annoying that they’re not allowed to properly mature and compete at their physical prime which would be 4-5yo.
Until we invent the time machine they can only be the best of their generation.
The type of older horses that I mentioned that are allowed to stay in racing and continue to compete and win at the top level for years are legends in my eyes.
So in summary you would rate Oujia Board better than Zarkava, and Persian Punch better than Sea The Stars and Nijinsky, because they raced for a longer time? Not a Dayjur fan either then? Dancing Brave?
Strange attitude to have imo – perhaps you’d be better watching NH exclusively because the flat has always been the same and always will be.
Perhaps in Europe, but Citation, Kelso, Dr. Fager, Forego, Seattle Slew, Spectacular Bid, Tom Fool, Affirmed, War Admiral, Round Table, Cigar, Swaps, Equipoise, John Henry, Nashua, Seabiscuit, Whirlaway, Exterminator, Skip Away, Assault, Discovery, Stymie, Alysheba, Gallorette, Dahlia, Personal Ensign, Zenyatta, and other giants of the American turf made their reputations as older horses.
Apples and oranges – As Robert Sangster once said, the americans race for prize money and we race for bloodstock. I must admit i wish things were a little different, but by the same token you can’t crab the likes of Nijinsky, Sea the Stars and Frankel surely to god.
No, of course you cannot, they were the best of their generation as young horses and had huge potential, it’s just a shame that potential was not sought or satisfied, like the true legends.
There are plenty of horses on your list that won triple crown races so I would suggest that their reputations were firmly established before they became 4yo.
Perhaps it would be better to give us a list of successful US sires that were unraced as juveniles and/or failed to win a group/grade one race in their classic year.So in summary you would rate Oujia Board better than Zarkava, and Persian Punch better than Sea The Stars and Nijinsky, because they raced for a longer time? Not a Dayjur fan either then? Dancing Brave?
Strange attitude to have imo – perhaps you’d be better watching NH exclusively because the flat has always been the same and always will be.
Perhaps in Europe, but Citation, Kelso, Dr. Fager, Forego, Seattle Slew, Spectacular Bid, Tom Fool, Affirmed, War Admiral, Round Table, Cigar, Swaps, Equipoise, John Henry, Nashua, Seabiscuit, Whirlaway, Exterminator, Skip Away, Assault, Discovery, Stymie, Alysheba, Gallorette, Dahlia, Personal Ensign, Zenyatta, and other giants of the American turf made their reputations as older horses.
Yet, your ultimate two greatest horses never raced as four year olds. Man O’ War and Secretariat’s achievements as three year olds were enough to secure them legendary status, well, so are those of Sea The Stars, Frankel, Nijinsky and mine obviously.
The talk about how a horse need to prove himself as older horses is utter bollocks. History has already has shown it, in 30 years’ time people will still be talking about Frankel and Sea The Stars, just like we are still talking ofabout Nijinsky, Sea Bird, Dancing Brave etc, whether the detractors like it or not. And, anyway, he’s not even retired yet.
I have a friend who works in the yard who says the horse went out on exercise 2nd lot today. He is having a precautionary scan which they have to do once the swelling has subsided (they do the same with tendon injuries to get the best possible picture). As far as he knows the horse over-reached with his back hoof and nicked the front leg. Thoroughbreds are notorious for getting filled legs at the drop of a hat due to infection/bruising.
I’d say they are being sensible to take the cautious line just in case he did any unseen damage. But its unlikely.
I have a friend who works in the yard who says the horse went out on exercise 2nd lot today. He is having a precautionary scan which they have to do once the swelling has subsided (they do the same with tendon injuries to get the best possible picture). As far as he knows the horse over-reached with his back hoof and nicked the front leg. Thoroughbreds are notorious for getting filled legs at the drop of a hat due to infection/bruising.
I’d say they are being sensible to take the cautious line just in case he did any unseen damage. But its unlikely.
Thanks for that Jinnyj. That sounds really positive news and has cheered up a pretty miserable day.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
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"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Perhaps it would be better to give us a list of successful US sires that were unraced as juveniles and/or failed to win a group/grade one race in their classic year.
That’s easy
Smart Strike -unraced as juvenile, did not win any stakes until his 4yo year
Awesome Again – unraced as juvenile, did not win any G1s until his 4yo year
Elusive Quality – unraced as juvenile, did not win any stakes until his 5yo year
Distorted Humor – unraced as juvenile, did not win any graded stakes until his 4yo year
Mt. Livermore – unraced as juvenile, no stakes wins until age 4
Cozzene – unraced as juvenile, did not win any stakes until his 4yo year but was Champion Turf Horse at 5Black Caviar… Overweight,Overhyped, thats what happens when you can only see your own little world, you talk rubbish like that and people realise you havnt a clue!
Perhaps it would be better to give us a list of successful US sires that were unraced as juveniles and/or failed to win a group/grade one race in their classic year.
That’s easy
Smart Strike -unraced as juvenile, did not win any stakes until his 4yo year
Awesome Again – unraced as juvenile, did not win any G1s until his 4yo year
Elusive Quality – unraced as juvenile, did not win any stakes until his 5yo year
Distorted Humor – unraced as juvenile, did not win any graded stakes until his 4yo year
Mt. Livermore – unraced as juvenile, no stakes wins until age 4
Cozzene – unraced as juvenile, did not win any stakes until his 4yo year but was Champion Turf Horse at 5Thanks for that, but I think you’ll agree its a relatively small list. As pointed out the prize money available in the US means that racing is a viable alternative to syndication.
I would just point out that Awesome Again won the Queen’s Plate.
It tends to show that some sign of precocity is preferable in a potential stallion. Of course it is only guesswork but Smart Strike being a half-brother to a Canadian triple crown winner by Mr Prospector was always going to find a home as a stallion (probably even if he had never run). Distorted Humor and Elusive Quality also belong to the same tail male line.
In the US stallions can start at quite low fees in order to encourage patronage, whereas in Europe they have tended to have their fees set too high before proving their worth as progenitors. This has no doubt resulted in Europe losing some excellent stallions due to impatience and over-expectation. However, in recent years I have noticed some evidence of more "come and try me" fees presumably designed to establish a stallion’s merit in Europe. We have too long dwelt in the myth that top class racehorse automatically equals top class sire.Regarding Frankel’s potential stallion prospects, it is worth noting that of Juddmonte’s 3 most successful stallions; Danehill (although they never stood him), Dansili and Oasis Dream, none showed form beyond a mile.
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