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[b:2kclyf8w]But there is no decline.[/b:2kclyf8w]
Depends how you define decline I suppose.
I presume from your posting the number of horses in training is your yardstick – in which case there is not a decline.
If, however, the measure is levels of prizemoney and overall quality of the product then it can be argued the sport is in decline.
What I also found interesting from the stats posted by tbracing is the overall decline in jockey numbers.
Although the flat professionals have increased from 2004 to 2008 (119-127), the jumps are down from 97-84.
As for the apprentices this shows a drop from 230-123, and the conditionals 188-93. The amateurs have also dropped from 230-123.
Have I read the stats correctly?“Betfair on Tuesday reacted angrily to what they perceive to be the BHA joining forces with fixed-odds bookmakers to gang up on them over their financial contribution to British horseracing”
You have to laugh at this. What financial contribution exactly ?
I think the answer is simple. Re-design the levy so that industry gets a fair price for its product across all betting mediums.
Specifically, how about instead of Malta-based Betfair (a fact Glenn and Chums rarely mention) only paying Levy on bets placed overseas on British racing like they did last year (to the tune of £1.3million or 10% of their gross profit on those bets), make them pay levy on bets laid between UK customers ? It’s a leakage which needs to be filled.
It’s time that the exchanges stopped getting something for virtually nothing. No more publicity-favourable gimmicks like the Betfair million, just cash please.
how about instead of Malta-based Betfair (a fact Glenn and Chums rarely mention) only paying Levy on bets placed overseas on British racing like they did last year (to the tune of £1.3million or 10% of their gross profit on those bets), make them pay levy on bets laid between UK customers ? It’s a leakage which needs to be filled.
It’s time that the exchanges stopped getting something for virtually nothing. No more publicity-favourable gimmicks like the Betfair million, just cash please.
Well I never. "Barry Dennis jumps on misinformed anti-Betfair posting" shocker.
You don’t seem to understand how the Levy system works. Betfair (by law) have to pay Levy on their profits from UK customers. This is because that part of their business is based in the UK. They paid about £6m last year on that business. They money they paid on the Malta business (the £1.3m you refer to) was voluntary. It was essentially a gift to British racing(.
In the meantime, British racing (i.e. the BHA) continues to paint Betfair as a pariah, whilst simultaneously cosying up to William Hill (an organisination which has moved its entire internet business offshore and on which it pays £0.00 in Levy.
If you bet with Betfair (whether you are in the UK or not) you are making an indirect contribution to the Levy. If you bet with William Hill online you are not.
Let’s be clear here. The 1.3m BSB is on about was a voluntary contribution in addition to Betfair’s normal Levy payment, under the current Levy Argeement.
Just in case anyone thought they only paid 1.3 millon in total.
Edit: Sorry, must of posted at same time. See above for a fuller explaination
–lads hills corals £20M each
betfair £6M
I thought you chaps were good at maths Barry? Does £6m plus £1.3m = £6m?
In any event your comparison is meaningless. You might as well say: "Betfair £7.3m and Barry Dennis only £2.50". Would that mean that Barry Dennis was underpaying Levy? Of course not. It would simple mean that Betfair had made much more on the sport for the year than Barry Dennis had made.
All we can say with certainty is that for every £1 Betfair makes on the sport, it pays 10p back in Levy. For every £1 that Hills and Ladbrokes make on the sport they pay back less than 10p, because they have both moved their online businesses to Gib and are refusing to make any voluntary payments on those businesses.
So, relative to its gross profit on the sport, the metric on which the Levy has been based since 2001, Befair are paying more than Hills and Lads.
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Depends how you define decline I suppose.
I presume from your posting the number of horses in training is your yardstick – in which case there is not a decline.
If, however, the measure is levels of prizemoney and overall quality of the product then it can be argued the sport is in decline.
"Overall quality" I would praise also, especially on the turf. Competition in the Pattern is hotter here than in France, Ireland – let alone Germany, Italy or the USA.
The level of prize money is not deterring people from having many of their best horses in training either here, or in Ireland where levels of prize money are not much better, if at all.
Rarely has European bloodstock (which largely means Ireland, true enough) been so dominant a force for quality, as well as quantity.
So I’d personally quibble with the idea that our racing is in decline, even under your revised terms!
What about the layers, bookmaking on Betfair ? What are they contributing to the financial running of the sport ?
What about the layers, bookmaking on Betfair ? What are they contributing to the financial running of the sport ?
Winning layers on the exchanges pay commission to the exchange. The exchanges are then levied at 10% on any profit accruing from this commission charge.
Hope this helps.
wello said Cav , am not sure where Black Sam is coming from , but surely anyone with a grain of common sense can see that if racing tries to Bully BetFAIR into paying more , would be looking at the prospect of them moving away , what happens then ???
Barry as much as we love you , your comparisons are incomplete , you can only compare like with like , so Betfairs low margin operation based on commission collection is never going to generate as much profits as the big bookies, so you cannot compare
cheers
Ricky
Ricky – Betfair are the exchange not the bookmaker.
You talk about them "moving away"…where to exactly ? They’re already based in Malta for accounting purposes.
Alan Potts thread was about declining prize money last 5 years.
this coincides with betfairs prominence in the betting market and reduction in levy.
And these figures of horses in training show who is REALLY funding racing.
The bookies put in about £80M
Owners put in about £18000 per horse per year, thats about £270M
That’t why the punters who moan about conspiracies to do them out of their £5 stakes are talking through their hats.
Alan Potts thread was about declining prize money last 5 years.
this coincides with betfairs prominence in the betting market and reduction in levy.
It also coincides with many punters refusal to bet with firms who won’t lay 2 bananas, firms who wont take your business if your any good, firms who have turned their betting offices into mini casinos, and the growth of other sports as betting mediums, sports who treat their fans like customers, not something they stood in.
The bookies put in about £80M
The punters put in about £80 million. They’d put in a lot more if racing gets it act together.
Alan Potts thread was about declining prize money last 5 years.
this coincides with betfairs prominence in the betting market and reduction in levy.
Yet more misinformation from Barry Dennis. 2 plus 2 equals 7,458.
The Levy climbed steadily every year of Betfair’s existence, culminating with a record yield of approx £113m for the year ended March 2008. Are you trying to tell us that Betfair has just taken off in the past 12 months??
The number for the year ended March 2008 was inflated by a couple of huge losing high rollers, customers of Ladbrokes. Once they (or "he" if it was one person, as rumoured) disappeared, it was inevitable the Levy would decline to some extent.
This current Levy year there will show a clear decline in the Levy which represents more than just the disappearance of a few high rollers.
Apart from some of the reasons cited by CR, might the following not have an impact:
– the recession.
– the offshoring by Ladbrokes and Hills of their internet businesses – which were paying Levy until they skipped off to Gib.If the current freeze continues, the loss of fixtures will also have an inevitable impact on the Levy.
Apoogies to AP for hijacking his thread, but it is hard to read pocket talking tripe and allow it go unchecked.
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