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Dropping a grade to boost confidence

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  • #1363155
    Avatar photoArchipenko
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    Some trainers make a concerted effort to build a horse’s confidence by starting off in easy contests. They then move steadily up the grades until the horse reaches G1 (or whatever its maximum level is).

    Another practice is – when a horse shows mediocre form at a given level – to drop it down and build up steadily again. Horses are like humans and they can benefit from you making things easier to build confidence in the long run.

    I thought it mighy be nice to share our favourite examples of trainers ultimately turning a horse into a G1 winner by taking this long view?

    I know he hasn’t won a G1 (yet) and I am biased towards his sire STS … but I like the way Stoute has built CRYSTAL OCEAN up slowly this season after finishing 3rd in the St Leger.

    It might have been tempting to throw the horse straight back in at G1 level. But Stoute has developed the horse’s winning mindset by dropping down to G3/G2.

    #1363171
    Avatar photoGladiateur
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    Henry Cecil with Twice Over springs to mind.

    #1363180
    Avatar photoSteeplechasing
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    Does a horse have such a thing as confidence to lose/regain?

    #1363181
    Avatar photoGladiateur
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    Many trainers have said as much over the years. They can’t all be charlatans, can they?

    #1363182
    Avatar photoNathan Hughes
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    Does a horse have such a thing as confidence to lose/regain?

    Surely some lose confidence when falling at a fence Joe..? hence why some stutter going into a jump whereas before they were bold.

    Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026

    #1363189
    Avatar photoSteeplechasing
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    Fair comment, Nathan. I’d say such horses might recall a previous fall and it makes them fearful and nervous, but can they experience confidence in the way humans can when it comes to winning?

    I suppose much depends on the reasons for losing. Jockeys and trainers often say that many horses will not go through the ‘pain barrier’ of giving all having done so once too often (and maybe that breaking point is the very first time they are asked for everything). Arguably a horse dropped far enough in grade need not be asked for everything to win a race; perhaps that is what connections mean when talking about confidence.

    I find it an intriguing debate – confidence as we classify it? I don’t know; maybe they do have it. Do horses even know they have won? That’s another argument, but probably linked to the confidence one.

    #1363197
    Avatar photoPants
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    Sometimes jockeys don’t know if they’ve won or not, Frankie on Lady A for example!

    #1363200
    Avatar photoyeats
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    steeplechasing,

    Do you think Red Rum gained any confidence from catching Crisp and know that he had won? Or would he have been just as good if Crisp had been ridden by J Francome and hacked up by 30 lengths? ;-)

    #1363202
    Avatar photoNathan Hughes
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    I remember Richard Hughes saying Youmzain used to gain confidence from being dropped out the back and liked passing horses although I think it’s more down to his racing preference and having the race run to suit where the others are tiring off a fast pace.

    Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026

    #1363203
    Avatar photoGoldenMiller34
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    Maybe it’s not confidence (in the human manner) as such but has to do with learned behaviour and reward.

    Horse A is allowed to get its head in front in training gallops, merely does what its been taught (given being entered in a winnable race commensurate to its ability) on the course, and finds itself receiving a lot of fuss and attention for doing so. That’s pleasurable so it wants to have the experience again.

    Horse B gets used to galloping with but finishing just behind stablemates, goes to the races with a chance but not a great one, tries its best but can’t go any faster and does not like (who would) the methods employed by its jockey to try to make it do so. Same if it has a bad experience at a fence. These are not things it wants a repeat of. In contrast, daily routine is enjoyable, it’s well looked after, its groom is kind. Horse figures out that by just going through the motions a cushy life of carrots and polo mints will continue.

    Horse A when in a tougher contest is likely to dig deep, striving to attract the pleasure it has received before. Horse B may eventually find itself in a race weak enough that by doing nothing taxing it gets extra love, it doesn’t gain confidence as such but might be inclined to push itself a bit more next time.

    #1363209
    Avatar photoSteeplechasing
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    GM, with what ‘event’ does the winning horses associate the post-race attention? I assume it does not know there is a winning post, but only that the jockey rides it hard and then suddenly eases down and asks it to slow and gradually pull up.

    Then, say, the jockey pats and praises – does the horse associate it with finishing in front of all others, with pulling up, with turning toward the stands? There are many other potential associative events all the way through until it is loaded into the horsebox and it will probably still be getting praise and pats when it exits the horsebox at home. As it stands in its box that evening, it would take a remarkable process of equine thought to work back through all those ‘events’ and nail the reward pattern in its entirety to the point it passed the winning post ahead of all the others who had lined up alongside it a few minutes earlier.

    If only they could talk!

    #1363214
    homersimpson
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    Again I think the confidence boost is that the horse is possibly finding it easier than the last time it ran but then horses have to remember that last time it ran it found life difficult having to keep up with others or jumping fences which it did not find easy, so there must be some thought process there if that’s the case.

    I remember Frankie saying of Authorised “He thinks he’s won today” despite getting beat by Notnowcato in the 2007 Eclipse. Did he think he won?

    I definitely think there is a confidence thing in the jumping game and also like humans some horses are probably more confident than others?

    Can a horse think about another horse. Now last time I saw you I beat you and I’m gonna do the same again today(in horsey language?).

    Things like this has stumped me for years with any animal. The other day a cat was stalking two crows. The crows, you would say, started to take the piss. One pecking away a few yards in front and the other a few feet behind getting closer as the cat watched its mate. Then when the cat noticed the one behind it would try to leap at this crow but it would just fly up into the air and land a few yards further away. The cat would then start stalking this one and its mate would do the same thing with the same result. The cat eventually sloped off, presumably pissed off with the whole thing. Could the crows really think “We are going to have you on here” and then possibly laugh there wings off when the cat eventually went. Did the cat think “You pair of ****s I’ll get you another day”.

    #1363220
    Avatar photoSteeplechasing
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    Must have driven that cat raven mad

    #1363223
    Avatar photoGoldenMiller34
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    Good point, Joe, I think the event a horse associates with is going to the races as a whole. Something that may happen say 8 times per year that’s vastly different to its normal daily routine. Is it a pleasurable or painful experience? Some horses’ demeanour will change the moment they are loaded onto the horsebox. In the same way horses are often said to benefit from a few months turned out in a field, an enjoyable break which sometimes may change an attitude.

    #1363225
    Avatar photoArchipenko
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    Some interesting points about equine “confidence”.

    My experience of training jumping horses is that they do have a human-like “confidence” when it comes to making mistakes/ falling.

    In the first place every horse has a personality like humans (horsenality?!). Some are brave and some are chicken. One horse might make no fuss when you ask it to jump over something. Another horse might just refuse to jump. Some say the latter are the “clever” ones!

    A horse that has had a near-miss or has fallen may demonstrate reluctance coming into a fence. You can overcome this by using your leg/ stick. If a horse has too many near-misses/falls it might start stopping at fences.

    Once a jumper learns to refuse at a fence there is no unlearning that. That is why it is so important to make things easier to build “confidence” after a horse gets a fright jumping.

    #1363263
    Louise12
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    Couldn’t agree more, Archipenko – to my mind, confidence (and other emotions) are animal traits, not human (humans are animals). Pilsudski might be a good example of the confidence giving – he was a late maturing type, but he was kept at his level all along, before being let loose in gp 1s. Certain horses also don’t thrive in big impersonal yards – give them to a smaller, or friendlier, yard and they blossom. They just need the one to one thing.

    #1363356
    Avatar photoArchipenko
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    I like what Jane Cecil did with NOBLE MISSION.

    Mike de Kock had a good record with ex-ballydoyle horses – e.g. ARCHIPENKO and EAGLE MOUNTAIN.

    Louise you make a good point about cast-offs from big yards achieving their best results in a smaller yard.

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