Who wins?
A real Christmas cracker
- Desert Orchid
- Kauto Star
- This topic has 79 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 4 months ago by
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The ultimate King George match. Good to soft ground, so no excuses on that score.
Who wins?
imo Kauto Star had the “best form”, but if it came to a race between the pair Dessie’s courage would always tell. If Denman could worry Kauto out of a Gold Cup am sure Dessie could’ve done the same in a Boxing Day duel. So voted Dessie.
Value Is EverythingDon’t think Kauto was worried Ginge, think he was below par all that year.
He was tougher than a lot thought, look at his battle with Imperial Commander in the betfairGaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
Would lean towards Kauto Star at his peak, but its impossible to hold a firm view.
BUY THE SUN
Same could be said about Imperial Commander in the Betfair, Nathan – ie a below par IC.
Value Is EverythingI know it’s an abject, Buck passing, cop out, but Timeform say Kauto Star, so I’m with them.
Two of the very best since Arkle and versatile too – both effective at 2m and Desert Orchid stayed 3m5f.
But this is 3m round Kempton and I’m taking Kauto Star to win it by three lengths.
Horrible question!
Two great chasers!
https://www.timeform.com/horse-racing/features/top-horses/timeforms
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Just looking at that list you’ve posted shows how suspect Timeform ratings can be, Ian. And that’s coming from someone who owns every Chasers & Hurdlers annual and every Racehorses since 1970.
I don’t think Kauto would get to Dessie around Kempton; the grey to win by eight lengths, as Ruby eases off in the last hundred yards.
Interesting question. I’d probably just give Dessie the edge at Kempton, though think Kauto had a touch more class and was the better all-rounder.
Also disagree Kauto’s resolution was any less than Dessie’s. It’s a shame we never had a Gold Cup when both Denman and Kauto Star were at their best simultaneously.
Gladiateur,
You’re absolutely right but my problem is, not having personally handicapped every horse in training throughout my lifetime, I end up relying on Official Ratings, or Timeform if the former aren’t to hand.
It’s all down to opinions and “horrible question” really means “excruciatingly brilliant question,” as I’m sure you know.
Great topic for Christmas with the big race two days hence.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Ratings aren’t everything though Ian. What about Timeform analysis of the horses attributes?
Although I’d agree that Kauto might be capable of better form. imo not in a match with Desert Orchid. If I remember rightly both horses produced their best rating at Kempton Park, Kauto in one (only one) King George. Dessie in the Racing Post, but Dessie seemed the more consistent (bomb proof going right-handed and therefore more likely to run to his rating). I’d also allow something for tactics (able to set the pace he wants), temperament (battler) and actual jumping ability, able to stand off well outside the wing (allowing the Nicholls horse almost alongside before half-lengthing him).
Value Is Everything“Also disagree Kauto’s resolution was any less than Dessie’s. It’s a shame we never had a Gold Cup when both Denman and Kauto Star were at their best simultaneously.”
IMO we did in 08, and KS couldn’t handle Denmans relentless gallop.
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I agree Denman was at his best that day Tatling! Personally I don’t think Kauto was though. He certainly wasn’t in his next start, though it could be argued the hard Gold Cup run had taken its toll then.
“Ratings aren’t everything though Ian.”
Agreed, but when comparing horses from different eras they have their uses.
A horse can only achieve a rating in a scenario that makes it possible.
One of Arkle’s most astonishing displays was in the Gallaher Gold Cup (a Handicap Chase) and I’m not surprised Desert Orchid’s finest hours on the numbers was in the Racing Post (Handicap Chase).
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Kauto didn’t jump or travel even in the early stages in that race with his usual exuberance
think he fell or picked up an injury/setback after Ascot in his previous raceGaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
If the Betfair Chase had never existed I wonder what weight carrying performances Kauto Star might have managed in the Hennessy, as Denman did.
A fixture list rich with Pattern races works on the Flat because of the sheer volume of quality horses in training each year.
Less so in NH and I miss the days when the only real level weights staying chaser showdown was in the Cheltenham Gold Cup – even the King George had a penalty structure for many years.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Ian,
If having the time, can you please explain why Kauto Star was given that rating in the King George?
I think it was the one with Alberta’s Run in second – a race where seemingly no other horse ran to its best. 2nd Albertas best left handed, 3rd Voy Por best over shorter etc.I should have added to that long list of attributes Dessie had over Kauto a much more believable rating.
Value Is EverythingTbh, GT, I don’t know where Timeform got their peak rating for Kauto Star from.
I personally find it hard to separate them – both great.
Desert Orchid won from 2m to 3m5f (further than Kauto Star) but I think Kauto Star handled Cheltenham better than Desert Orchid did.
I think Kempton suited them both, which is what makes Gladiateur’s question so intriguing.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"
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