Who wins?
A real Christmas cracker
- Desert Orchid
- Kauto Star
- This topic has 79 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 4 months ago by
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Kauto’s peak Timeform rating of 191 was achieved in his 36-length stroll in the 2009 King George. His defeat of Albertas Run the previous season was rated at 184.
Thanks, Gladiateur – this is such a good thread.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Oops, did I get that wrong?
Well, beating Madison Du Berlais and Barber Shop seems even worse to me.
Value Is EverythingApologies, the above does sound as though am dissing Kauto too much. He was indeed a great Champion. Could argue distances he beat those horses means better horses can be fitted into the gap between winner and second. Just that the horses he beat right-handed were never (on the day) as good as or as battle hardened as Dessie.
Value Is EverythingDessie’s not getting caught in this one.
Denman once got Kauto “at it,” Dessie’s got him “at it!”
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Dessie all day every day on a right handed track – I don’t think Kauto’s jumping would have stood up to chasing him round Kempton or Sandown but if he was able to stick with him Dessie was a much more battle hardened racehorse and would have prevailed had they eyeballed each other in a finish. He was also the more versatile horse winning from 2m to 3m5f on ground ranging from good to firm (shocker for those younger fans to know that they used to race on it over jumps) to heavy.
Kauto (along with a lot of the top class horses that followed on from Dessie) were fortunate to come at a time where the top class horses where much better catered for with all the level weight grades races which is probably why I took more to Denman than Kauto as he was more of a throwback to the top class horse running in a handicap conceeding weight all round (his two Hennesey wins for me trumped any victories Kauto had).
For me I think Dessie was underrated on official figures, some of the the performances he put up under big weights were quite frankly mind blowing when you compare it to what happens today – his Racing Post Chase win under 12st 6lbs giving future Grand National winner Seagram 2st 9lbs and a 16L beating and his Irish Grand National win under 12st in which he conceeded 2st to all bar one of the rest of the 13 runners especially when you consider he was a front runner there to be shot at and arguably he was just the other side of his peak by that time to.
Don’t get me wrong Kauto was an incredibly gifted/tough horse but for me his peak just wasn’t as good as peak Dessie.
Slight correction, LD: Dessie carried 12st 3lb in the Racing Post chase and conceded 2st 6lbs to Seagram. 😉
It was something Dunwoody said when asked about Elsie – he mentioned that to him Dessie’s best ever performance was the Racing Post Chase and he said: “He had him absolutely on song that day. It was some performance. He carried 12st 6lb with a penalty”
When you look at the the Racing Post record here
https://www.racingpost.com/results/28/kempton/1990-02-24/33659
its show 12st 3lbs but next to it is EW 3Got to be Dessie, spectacular jumping, and that tenacity, even if Kauto managed to get anywhere close on the run in Dessie would have eyeballed him out of it!
@LD73: Dessie was allocated 12-0 in the Racing Post Chase but incurred a 3lb penalty for winning at Wincanton after the weights had been published, so he carried 12-3 on the day. 😎
Caveat: that is the information in the essay in Chasers & Hurdlers 1989/90. It may be that Timeform have got it wrong, but it wouldn’t be a commonplace occurrence.
Obviously we will never know for certain but I believe Desert Orchid would have won around Kempton.
Arkle’s victory in the Gallagher Cup at Sandown in 1965 was not just a great racing performance but one of the all time great sporting performances, maybe the very best.
“Arkle’s victory in the Gallagher Cup at Sandown in 1965 was not just a great racing performance but one of the all time great sporting performances, maybe the very best.”
Agreed 100% – I still can’t quite believe what I am seeing, even when I replay it for the umpteenth time.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"It wasn’t till his last King George that I finally acknowledged that Kauto just might be as good as Des. And that last one was something special. But there was always that doubt about Kauto’s jumping, even though I think it might have been Francome that said he never actually looked like falling in his later races. Some bookmakers even took bets about Kauto getting round earlier in his career ( something that really angered me at the time). So it has to be Dessie for me. I don’t think Kauto would have brought me back to racing after years in the wilderness.
I say Dessie for the same reason I prefer Denman to Kauto , both won big handicaps humping huge weight , in Denman case 2 hennessy’s , Kauto never did and was never asked to , Dessie was also a much better jumper than Kauto
Pick 3 on Saturday champion 2025/2026
Desert Orchid won over a variety of distances and gave the weight away in handicaps. Kauto Star did the former but not the latter.
I know that is not really his fault. The racing programme had changed but it is still missing on his CV. Without that, I am not sure he can really be considered better than Desert Orchid.
As ID says, Arkle’s performance at Sandown that day defies belief. The film (which was lost for years) does not entirely do it justice. He gave Mill House over a stone, beat him by nearly a distance barely breaking sweat and shattered the track record, which stood for years afterwards.
Some people claim Mill House was past his peak but David Nicholson said he winged every fence that day and Arkle still cantered past him. And Mill House was still good enough to win the Whitbread in 1967 under top weight.
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