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Kauto Star a very good horse; of that there is little doubt. He will probably run at Aintree in a few weeks time and prove to everyone just how good a horse he is – as if we had any doubt – but right now, he is the second best staying chaser in the land.
Is Kauto any better than Desert Orchid, for example, who won four King George’s, a Gold Cup, an SGB chase, not to mention a Whitbread … and a Tingle Creek and an Irish Grand National?
Let’s not forget Best Mate (three Gold Cups in a row), whose achievement in doing so, is being harshly criticised in some quarters. Wrongly, in my opinion.
Then there’s Burrough Hill Lad, champion chaser three years running, and another who is often underrated, or the great Silver Buck, himself a Gold Cup winner and twice victor of the King George, and of course Pendil, winner of his first twenty chases, a brilliant jumper, and a horse who would have given them all something to think about over three miles.
Salselon asked why bring Arkle is forever brought into the equation. I’ll tell you why. He is the standard by which all the aforementioned and those not mentioned ( past, present or future ) will be measured – even Denman !
It should be noted that both Desret Orchid and Arkle achieved their high timeform rating for lumping huge weights when winning good handicaps against other good horses, and not simply because of their Gold Cup and King George victories.
I do hope KS is put away for the season, don’t want to see another Azertyuiop.
JohnJ.
Denman would not stay in a National. If he’s running off 185 or thereabouts he has no hope of seeing out the trip.
I would like to point out that nothing with STRONG GALE in its immediate pedigree has ever finished in the first four home in the National and there have been many to attempt it. STRONG GALE in fact has one of the worst records in Aintree history (in 1996 there were four Strong Gale geldings alone in the line up of 27 and not one could reach the frame). Presenting too has now had a fair number of runners over four miles and so far not a single one has won. I WANT Denman to run in next year’s National as that means I can easily discard at least one runner from my calculations.
Denman will most probably win the next two Gold Cups, so why bother running around Aintree against no hopers and much inferior horses. I reckon (and hope) Paul Nicholls will follow the same or similar route with Denman as he has done this season – and who knows, if the ground comes up on the softish side at Kempton on Boxing Day, he might just blow away some non stayers in the King George as his old pal, Kauto Star has done.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
its not really a debate this about Denman and Kauto star, its mere fact, bot h running to one hundred percent, Kauto would have one by some 15 lengths yesterday, i mean he jumped through every fence, but look just before the last fence, if he jumped that cleanly? the winning margin would have been what? 2 lengths? if that? ad kauto lost a legth or so at aproximately 15 or so fences, im a ks fan and im so pleased how he got so close at teh end, yet bulldozed all the fnces, its good for the sport and punters, because bookies giving 4/1 for nxt year are mugs
Kauto Star a very good horse; of that there is little doubt. He will probably run at Aintree in a few weeks time and prove to everyone just how good a horse he is – as if we had any doubt – but right now, he is the second best staying chaser in the land.
Is Kauto any better than Desert Orchid, for example, who won four King George’s, a Gold Cup, an SGB chase, not to mention a Whitbread … and a Tingle Creek and an Irish Grand National?
Let’s not forget Best Mate (three Gold Cups in a row), whose achievement in doing so, is being harshly criticised in some quarters. Wrongly, in my opinion.
Then there’s Burrough Hill Lad, champion chaser three years running, and another who is often underrated, or the great Silver Buck, himself a Gold Cup winner and twice victor of the King George, and of course Pendil, winner of his first twenty chases, a brilliant jumper, and a horse who would have given them all something to think about over three miles.
Salselon asked why bring Arkle is forever brought into the equation. I’ll tell you why. He is the standard by which all the aforementioned and those not mentioned ( past, present or future ) will be measured – even Denman !
It should be noted that both Desret Orchid and Arkle achieved their high timeform rating for lumping huge weights when winning good handicaps against other good horses, and not simply because of their Gold Cup and King George victories.
I agree with much of what you say Himself and you obviously cannot include too many horses in your list from over the years, but why oh why everyone seems to forget L’Escargot is beyond me – a very good and totally under-rated horse who won two Cheltenham Gold Cups in a very good era, the Grand National (only the second horse in history to win both events after the great Golden Miller),also placed 2nd and 3rd in the Grand National, winner of the Colonial Cup and also had the speed to win the Gloucestershire Hurdle at the Cheltenham Festival as well.
Personally, I rate him well ahead of Best Mate, who though he won 3 Gold Cups, beat relatively poor opposition in my opinion (by Gold Cup standards) unimpressively in at least two of them. He could only beat what was around at the time, I know, but as usual, the media elevated him to superstar status almost instantaneously, as they do so frequently !
I’ve said this before, but I think the problem with L’Escargot was that he wore blinkers; people don’t warm to horses that wear them – he also beat Red Rum which makes him as popular as any horse that happened to beat Dessie in his heyday. I would like Kauto Star to run again this season; I’m usually against any horse running at Aintree after Cheltenham, but I just feel that we need to see the real Kauto Star before the end of the season; I don’t want people to start forgetting just what an awesome horse he is. Always feel that the best horse in the country tends to win the King George, not the Gold Cup, because horses come back again and again for the KG, but the Gold Cup has a habit of being won by fly by nights…..however, if a picture of a horse is going to make it’s way to my mantlepiece it will be Denman, who epitomizes everything that I feel about nh racing – big, bold and beautiful.
Fist…just in-case your memory has failed you…the link below should take you back to the time when you were indeed “all over Binocular for the Triumph”. You were championing this horse right-up until the final declarations were published.
“I heard about Binocular a long time ago and refused to bet him for the Triumph because I have heard it all before….But when I saw him run I couldn’t get on the phone fast enough”
everyone has carried the pre race hype through to after the race imo. If everyone is honest it is clear to see that Kauto Star didnt travel, or jump like he normally does, (like he didnt at aintree), but then stayed on after the last, again like aintree! And we have seen what has happened to monets garden since that defeat of Kauto.
Denman was very impressive,and is no doubt an exceptional horse, but WAS out on his feet on the line.
So this big match race never really materialised because one of the horses ran below form, so everyone thinks the other horse is the best since arkle! No, just the best horse that ran in the 2008 gold cup.
185 is a silly mark to put denman on, and if he runs in next seasons hennessey this will be exposed because he should be on 178 imoI agree with much of what you say Himself and you obviously cannot include too many horses in your list from over the years, but why oh why everyone seems to forget L’Escargot is beyond me – a very good and totally under-rated horse who won two Cheltenham Gold Cups in a very good era, the Grand National (only the second horse in history to win both events after the great Golden Miller),also placed 2nd and 3rd in the Grand National, winner of the Colonial Cup and also had the speed to win the Gloucestershire Hurdle at the Cheltenham Festival as well.
Personally, I rate him well ahead of Best Mate, who though he won 3 Gold Cups, beat relatively poor opposition in my opinion (by Gold Cup standards) unimpressively in at least two of them. He could only beat what was around at the time, I know, but as usual, the media elevated him to superstar status almost instantaneously, as they do so frequently !
My apologies Seventy Four for excluding L’ Escargot. I had intended to include him in my post, but somehow I forgot. A very good horse in his day.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Apologies accepted Himself !!!
(No need at all to apologise really).I know L’Escargot did not grab people’s imagination because he wore blinkers later in his career (he certainly didn’t wear them when winning his Gold Cups) but maybe that was a sign that the horse became a thinker later in his career, a sure sign of character and one to which I am not at all averse.
He wouldn’t have been popular at all as Moehat points out for beating Red Rum at Aintree, but I think it just goes to show what a wonderful, versatile and classy horse he was – that he could beat the best at Cheltenham and also beat Red Rum, who was probably the best Aintree specialist of all time !
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DITTO
Fist,
I’m not slagging you – I’m just pointing out that you seem to have backed every wiinner after the event.
Let me remind you that you were all over Binocular for the Triumph – you said you had backed him for a lot of money and stood to win fortunes etc. You also agreed that he wouldn’t be turning up in the Supreme Novices.
Yet when he was confirmed as a Supreme Novices runner (about 48 hours before the race) you suddenly seem to have backed him massively ante-post
– you didn’t even know he was running in the Supreme for crying out loud – so how have you backed him to win thousands ante-post?I’m not questioning your bets and don’t care how much you have won/lost, and me and you get on quite well and talk frequently via PM – however, that won’t stop me saying what I think and that I think you make a few bets up after the race. Sorry if I’m wrong – no personal offence intended.
Mike
You can bet your sweet as you are wrong……….. when did I ever say I had backed Binocular for fortunes in the Triumph Hurdle? I told you in a PM I backed the horse immediatlety after his first race at 10/1 in a PM on the 22nd of Jan if you care to look at your messages….I couldnt have told you what was going to be running in the race at that time do you think I am stone fookin mad?
Tell you what mike to put your mind at rest PM me and I will give you a URL to a tipping competition I enetered for Cheltenham……..at the end of the second day I was 500 points up despite not including New Alco ew and Crackaway Jack……look back your PM on the latter and tell me if I lie about him when I said I did not back Binocluar because I was thought he was a bit special………..that was on the 22nd of Jan………..I’ve touted CAJ on here why the fook would I not bet him?…….I never bet him on the day I bet him when the bettting come out at a lousy 11/2 my bad for not settting him on the day I thought he had too much wieight……..how many punters spotted him the first time he ran or even when he finished behind Binocular…….not one person mate…….I study races inside out not just look at the silver lining and that’s why I make friggin money out the game…..maybe not he best on here by a long way others like bullwark has a great eye on him but he’s probably after timing like me in your eyes………That same guy was on Money Trix at 20/1 before the lads in the yard had even bet him……unforunately he ws injured but some people do have a good insight into racing……….it doesn’t make them after timers………he dug out Binocular way before me at 33/1. sure I had heard he was expected to do well but I never had his foresight……How unlucky was he not to collect on the horse if he had ran he would have pissed all over the top of Franchoek……………..so because I took 14/1 ew nrnb (because I think carvils pointed it out to me and I said in a thread I took the price) and then when he was confirmed a runner and opened at12/1 I grabbed the price again EW I’m an after timer on ahorse i have been touting on here since January you expect people to believe for one minute i would bet the horse then you friggin nuts……..with 1/4 the odds plus Khalahari KIng posted on here months ag among my ap EW bets Mick………..you do the sums and add in the EW bet I had on Binny in the Triumph..and tell me how you figure out how I could possible lose the race………..then look back my best and see if I backed tidal Bay when he drifted out to 12/1 or Katchit my original choice for the champion hurdle who I have defened on here hand a fist………..then come back and show me one bet after timed………..lousy statement lousy low down post.
But all this is now irrelevant isn’t if Fist, because if you are true to your word then you will have had a terrible Festival.
I quote,
[b:1xajtlva]“Finally if any my main bets win the whole lot is going on Kauto Star to win this years and next years Gold Cup 5/1.”[/b:1xajtlva]
One of your main bets – Master Minded?
One of your main bets – Albertas Run?
One of your main bets – Kauto Star?MM and AR won, so all your winnings would have went on KS for this year and next year, as well as your main bet on KS for this year.
So did you do it? Or did you manage to (as I suspect) somehow avoid putting ‘the whole lot’ on KS to win this and next years GC?
Mike
Fascinating stuff in Paul Nicholls stable tour and again in today’s Post of perhaps targetting Denman at the Grand Steeplechase de Paris in May after the regular season in Blighty.
Personally I’d rather see him take his chance in the National- what do others think?He should go to Auteuil, where he’d win by half the track.
I’ve still to be convinced Denman would get the trip in the National – and even if he did, it would be a mammoth ask under a punitive weight, giving gobs away to true stayers.
Conceding two stone to the likes of Comply or Die or King Johns Castle over 4m4f? I can’t see it myself.
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