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Didn’t he say Dublin was a Willie Mullins beneficiary, hope William wasn’t watching
The more I know the less I understand.
Somebody mentioned 4yo Crystal Spirit; he won what was then called the Bishops Cleeve Hurdle, over 2m4f – the mid season championship for intermediate distance hurdlers; I recall Mutare running in it, for CH’s connections.
I’m fed up with the hype around this horse – I don’t care how good he might be, he needs to run more often to be a proper champion. Get him on the Flat, and we’ll see how good he is……
Ginger,
Running at the 3 festivals in a row possibly caused Sprinter’s heart problems but it had nothing to do with running in Ireland specifically.I don’t think anyone can say what actually “caused” Sprinter Sacre’s problem, GM – if anything in particular, It may have happened even if he’d not run at any of the big three meetings. What I am saying is that trainers often avoid going places where things have gone badly for them in the past – whether the place can actually be blamed for what happened or not.
Say Desert Orchid won one of his handicaps giving lumps of weight away… Without being at his best, then had a heart problem afterwards, been out of sorts for over a season… And never capable of anywhere near his best form again… The heart problem etc could not actually be put down to running in that handicap… But had that happened, do you think David Elsworth would’ve been as keen to run his top horses in handicaps afterwards?
Another possibility:
Going racing, more than one person I talked to about Sprinter Sacre thought his heart problem could (not was but “could”) have been caused by being got at. Does Nicky think Sprinter Sacre could have been got at in Ireland? Am sure that if he does believe it he would not say… but equally am sure he’d make an excuse not to run his top horses there again.Value Is EverythingInteresting theory Gingertipster but very doubtful it has any basis. The season after Sprinter Sacre won in Ireland Henderson had his most ever runners in Ireland, 18 runners with 4 winners including Bob’s Worth in the Lexus. Buveur D’air in the Punchestown Champion hurdle 5 years ago was another winner and Maries Rock in the mares champion hurdle only a couple of years ago. He’s had runners most seasons although they may be starting to reduce now. If he’s giving “an unnecessary away game” as an excuse for not running Constitution Hill in Ireland maybe he’s just getting old and doesn’t want the “hassle” of going there any more.
Sprinter Sacre’s problem came to light at Kempton 8 months after Ireland so you’d be pushed to put the problem down to running in Ireland without the slightest bit of evidence.
Denman would have been a better example than Desert Orchid as he had a similar problem to Sprinter Sacre after winning the Gold Cup but that didn’t stop Paul Nicholls running him at Cheltenham again after. I suspect he didn’t give it a second thought and I doubt David Elsworth would have either. I’ve no reason to believe Nicky Henderson would be any different as well.
You make some good points, Yeats.
Maybe I am wrong.
However, there would be a significant difference in my mind between the Constitution Hill’s / Altior’s and the Bobs Worh’s / Buveur D’Air and Marie’s Rocks of this world. Or if not “of this world then of Henderson’s World. (I do know Altior ran in Ireland but that was a bumper / before he’d proven himself a top class racehorse). What I was really meaning is that since Sprinter’ Henderson’s in form, winning, top of the tops don’t run in Ireland. Whereas those who’ve had a set back or two, or who’ve run out of alternatives do often run in Ireland.Bobs Worth had been a well beaten 6th of 8 in the Betfair Chase (beaten almost 40 lengths) on his run before the Lexus victory… Possible Henderson wanted an easier Christmas target than taking Cue Card on again at Kempton. However, I believe the main reason for going to Ireland was Leopardstown was thought to favour Bobs Worth far more than Kempton. Bobs Worth was best left-handed… But Bobs Worth’s record after that first Lexus was similar to Sprinter Sacre too. Never the same again.
Buveur D’Air was a top class hurdler at his best, but his two races prior to Punchestown had seen him fall in the Champion Hurdle and beaten by Supasundae at Aintree. So on a retrieval mission for his Irish owner at Punchestown. I can see why he’d run there… But again, although BD won in Ireland he was never the same again. Including being beaten at long odds-on in the Fighting Fifth on his next start.
Marie’s Rock was not thought a top horse beforehand, going off @ 10/1 when winning at Punchestown. But the odds-on fav that day was Henderson’s Epatante. Can excuse her being below form 3rd, as she’d been a good second to Honeysuckle in the Champion Hurdle before winning the Aintree Hurdle. A third good run in a short period of time beyond her… But again, in Henderson’s own mind I suspect it was hardly an advertisment for running his top class horses in Ireland.
Don’t get me wrong, imo all the above are probably just coincidences. I am just trying to put myself in the trainer’s mind. Although those were victories in Ireland, I suspect none of them are right now encouraging Nicky to run Constitution Hill there. If CH got beat in the CH then I can see there’d be more reason in NH’s mind to run him in the Punchestown CH.
Value Is EverythingYou may possibly be paid out when the horse has finally snuffed it, but let it be casually known – it is quite possible to compete and race, albeit kitted out with curlers and pyjamas, at an age when most are gasping or taking to prayer.
No all night vigils for this please – no one supports a premature death – lol !
Conscrption ended 64 years ago and with it possibly the culling of the backbone of Britain ! I am not a military man, but please be aware, I once painted an army recruiting office in the suburbs of London.
Actuaries predict the horse has a good few decades left on the click, and his parents were of fine stick, or stock, and were both of puritan bent and non smoking non drinking
hair shirt disciplinarians, and ended up challenging that old woman in France for oldest oldie !PATIENCE IS INDEED A VIRTUE
SADLY
FEW GAMBLERS POSSESS !To suggest Sprinter Sacre was “gotten to” in Ireland is nonsense and downright insulting.
If he was “gotten to”, he wouldn’t have won.Punchestown comes very late in the season and horses both side of the pond often fail to run to their best at the meeting.
Was Gallopin Des Champs “gotten to” also.
How about when “God’s Own” beat “Vautour”.Plenty of top class animals run below par on occasion. They’re flesh and blood so it’s impossible to produce peak performance every time.
Two very recent examples:
Auguste Rodin in the King George
Shaquille in the Sprint CupNo explanation found for those performances.
I did not say Sprinter Sacre “WAS gotten to in Ireland”, GM. What I said was “could (not was but “could”) have been caused by being got at”… So I even said “NOT WAS but COULD” and started that paragraph with the heading “Another possibility”. ie Not even a probability.
As I understand it:
When horses are “got at”, they do not run anywhere near their best.
Sprinter Sacre did not run anywhere near his best, but because on form he had so much in hand still won the race.When horses are “got at”, drugs can (not always but “can”) put a strain on a horse’s organs (eg the heart). As Yeats rightly says, Sprinter Sacre’s problem was only found after Kempton, but the heart condition may have been forming between Punchestown and Kempton.
When horses are “got at”, it’s not always just that they are below form on the day of race. It’s that they are often – from that point – incapable of running to their best again. Sprinter Sacre did eventually win again but was never capable of anywhere near the form shown before Punchestown… not even when winning the Champion Chase. (Although to be fair, any heart condition may also prevent a horse from recapturing his best)..
I am usually the first to point out that top horses can run badly too. There are imo more likely reasons than being “got at” for Sprinter Sacre running a long way below form in Ireland. I am just trying to put myself in the trainer’s mind, for why he does not want to run Constitution Hill in Ireland. Why I mention “COULD” and “POSSIBILITY” got at, is that with Sprinter Sacre those THREE things (ABOVE) happened. Not just one. The horses you mention do not have the same profile and have far more believable explanations.
As far as I know none of your examples have had a heart problem since their disappointing efforts.
Galopin Des Champs and Auguste Rodin (unlike SS) have actually run to their previous brilliant bests (if not even better) since Punchestown / Ascot. Rodin had earlier run pretty poorly in the 2000 Guineas before bouncing back. Hard races at both Epsom and the Curragh. Below form when winning the Irish Derby. I remember some at the time saying he may not have even won without the weak riding of his stable companion in the straight. I wasn’t that surprised AR was even more below form at Ascot… AOB made a comment after the Irish Champion that seemed to suggest Rodin got upset on the plane journey over to Ascot and that he’d need longer to get over future plane journeys. Galopin Des Champs had a hard race in the Gold Cup and may not have been completely over it at Punchestown… But wasn’t as far below form as Sprinter Sacre anyway.
Vautour’s best form by quite a way is at 3 miles and 2 1/2 miles. So the bare 2m on the speedy surface of just good to yielding at Punchestown was not enough of a test of stamina. The last time Vautour ran at anything like 2m (Grade 1 company over fences) he was also beaten. Shame we did not see Vautour after Punchestown, broke a leg when turned out in a field.
Despite the winning run, Shaquille always had a bit of temperament in him, often slowly away and / or taking a strong hold… And the Sprint Cup last place was very similar to the last place (at a similar time in the year too) the previous season – in the Acomb. Given his temperament connections decision to retire to stud was no surprise.
Value Is Everything“Going racing, more than one person I talked to about Sprinter Sacre thought his heart problem could (not was but “could”) have been caused by being got at.”
Unless these people include Celia Marr (the doyenne of equine cardiology, to save anyone looking her up) I expect they were just repeating conspiracy theorist pub drivel.
“When horses are “got at”, drugs can (not always but “can”) put a strain on a horse’s organs (eg the heart)….When horses are “got at”, it’s not always just that they are below form on the day of race. It’s that they are often – from that point – incapable of running to their best again. ”
I know of no drug (undetectable by routine post race sampling or not) that can allow a horse to win a grade 1 race after it is administered but will cause such myocardial damage that the horse will be suffering from cardiac arrthymia months later after lots of rest and a summer’s grass. I find such a thing fantastical and would very much like to know the names of these types of drugs.
A more mundane explanation is that Sprinter put in a sublime performance at Cheltenham; a marginally less impressive performance turned out at Aintree 3 weeks later over half a mile further; and a slightly less impressive performance again turned out 3 weeks and a boat journey after that, against a horse who was fresh having skipped Aintree and who liked Punchestown (Sizing Europe was never out of the first 3 in 12 runs over the Punchestown chase fences and won the race the following year at the age of 12). It’s unsurprising that the edge was taken off Sprinter very slightly by the time of Punchestown. Problems arose at Kempton but “16.3hh TB racehorse gets atrial fibrillation” (I assume) is hardly a rare case.
It’s more likely a result of being a fairly big racehorse rather than anything sinister.The Aintree performance was less good than Cheltenham, and Kempton worst of the 4, but I wonder why the people you talked to were muttering about “got at in Ireland” rather than “got at in Liverpool” or “got at in Sunbury”.
“A more mundane explanation is that Sprinter put in a sublime performance at Cheltenham; a marginally less impressive performance turned out at Aintree 3 weeks later over half a mile further; and a slightly less impressive performance again turned out 3 weeks and a boat journey after that, against a horse who was fresh having skipped Aintree and who liked Punchestown”.
——————-
Then we agree, there are much more likely explanations than being got at.
Value Is EverythingI don’t believe Sprinter Sacre was got at in Ireland. However, it is worth remembering there was a case in 2018 where a horse trained by Charles Byrnes was allegedly administered an illegal substance in the racecourse stables at Tramore. In the subsequent investigation, it was revealed that only 1 (Leopardstown) of the 26 racecourses in Ireland had CCTV in its stables.
Of course, that does not mean Sprinter Sacre was got at. But if anyone was so minded, it would have been potentially easier to do it at Punchestown than at Cheltenham or Aintree.
All of a sudden my 12/1 no more Champion Hurdles with 7/2 saver one more doesn’t look so bad.
Could be this the first horse where I had it right off when it won and right off again when it prematurely retired?
What a game – 2.9 CH for the CH on the machine!
Get well soon, CH – you owe me nothing.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Yes, those of us who took those prices might be sitting pretty, ID. Or at least a bit prettier.
I thought Tom Stanley on RTV was going to start crying when he informed viewers of the news.
I wish the horse well, and hope he can make it fit and well. But there would be an irony if he couldn’t…..
When you have good horses, and they’re fit, bloomin’ run them…..
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