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Ginge, the next step would be to see him with a battle at his hands against horses that can challenge him going to the last. Jonbon might prefer easier tracks, more flat and not so turning like Cheltenham. DD did himself no favors by setting the usual very strong pace, but I think CH had his measure at that time.
A battle would be the next step and that’s what we all would want to see, I guess.
Ginger, just to add, I take your point about it being entirely possible for exceptional performances to occur in novice races. The main thing I’m keen to see is a repeat of the performance, wherever that may be.
There is something intrinsically more appealing about being able to say you’ve beaten all-comers though rather than some restricted subset.
“If and when Constitution Hill repeats the performance in open company I will be more on board with seeing him as a great”.
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Interesting points you make too, Marlingford.
So if Constitution Hill were to run the exact same race; same weight, jockey, going, course etc as the Supreme… And put up exactly the same overall time and sectionals… only this time in “open company”…
Why would that satisfy you?
It would surely be the same performance?
I don’t understand why the two would be judged differently.Value Is Everythingok You’ve answered my first question, but still don’t see why two identical time performances should be judged differently.
Value Is EverythingThink we’ve had a timing issue with the posts there Ginger!
You are right on the point re novice company. Hopefully my post made just before yours clarifies where I’m coming from.
One of the most interesting aspects of threads like this is that many, like the wider media, make wrong universal assumptions that we all think we same way.
“We all thought…” err, no, not all of us.
“We are always looking for….” err, no, some of us are hard to convince.
I’ve a big respect for racing history and even for horses that were before my time.
Prior to Frankel, if you’d asked me who was the best Flat horse ever, I’d be listing contenders I never actually saw or was too young to remember – Sea-Bird, Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel, Abernant, Ribot.
I would steadfastly refuse to hail any horse from my own era as “great” without compelling evidence.
But when Frankel won the Royal Lodge the way he did, after putting up an interesting time at Doncaster, I could see he was out of the ordinary.
He was already ticking my boxes and I didn’t have to wait for everything that happened thereafter because the evidence was already there.
I’ve seen over 40 Supreme Novice Hurdles since Golden Cygnet, and they’ve included impressive winners like Brownes Gazette, but this is the first time in all those years I’ve felt I’ve seen the best since Golden Cygnet in 1978.
Had Constitution Hill not run, Jonbon wins the Supreme by two and a half lengths from Kilcruit in a time which is still faster than the Champion Hurdle.
I think Jonbon gets hailed as a decent Supreme winner and an OR hike of just 2lb from 145 to 147 might even be regarded as a bit too conservative by some.
Constitution Hill beat him TWENTY TWO lengths in a time that is off the scale – impossible on ground which is actually Good to Soft and still exceptional on Good ground.
It’s so fast it’s very possibly made the Clerk Of The Course think the ground was firmer than it actually was and after racing water a surface he was calling Good to Soft at the start of the day.
An OR of 170 is entirely justified given all this and we are talking here about a five-year-old store who was having just the fourth race of his life and is bred to want further on Softer ground.
If that doesn’t excite you, you’re following the wrong sport.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"“I would steadfastly refuse to hail any horse from my own era as “great” without compelling evidence.
But when Frankel won the Royal Lodge the way he did, after putting up an interesting time at Doncaster, I could see he was out of the ordinary.
He was already ticking my boxes and I didn’t have to wait for everything that happened thereafter because the evidence was already there.”
What did you think about Pinatubo as a 2yo? Unbeaten, great individual performance in the National, one of the great 2yos of the modern era. Not overly big but perfectly formed and a great temperament like Constitution Hill which is a big ingredient in the perfect racehorse- eats, sleeps and wins. Very exciting horse. It was quite reasonable to say “let’s see if you can do it at 3”.
He was a very good horse at 3, though his peak rating was achieved at 2. It remains to be seen if Constitution Hill will find the usual improvement in his second season hurdling, or if- by dint of not having a huge frame to grow into, having a good hurdling technique that doesn’t need much brushing up, and having a calm temperament and the ability to race very professionally, he is now the finished article and that superb Supreme was his finest hour.
I hope he does meet Honeysuckle this year or next. As things stand, if they both go to Punchestown this season and are reported to be in good form at home, I’d pick Honeysuckle if they were both the same price.
“So if Constitution Hill were to run the exact same race; same weight, jockey, going, course etc as the Supreme… And put up exactly the same overall time and sectionals… only this time in “open company”…
Why would that satisfy you?
It would surely be the same performance?
I don’t understand why the two would be judged differently.”Interestingly, the handicapper put the 5 year old Espoir d’Allen on 170 after his fabulous Champion Hurdle winning performance, the same mark the 5 year old Constitution Hill is on now. Sadly we never got to see what Espoir d’Allen could do as a 6 year old.
“Maybe Henry is frustrated because he can see his horse’s run coming to an end.”
Yes, I reckon that has a lot to do with it Ginger. I think De Bromhead has become preoccupied with Honeysuckle going through her career unbeaten. Now a horse has come along which deep down he knows can beat her on the figures and he has over reacted when asked about it by the media.
As for some of the other horses: bring on the after timing accusations but not everyone bought into the hype.
Samcro was hailed the Second Coming after his Leopardstown victory but his Ballymore win was only workmanlike over Black Op. He has disappointed since. To be fair, I thought he ran well when he won the Marsh – travelled superbly and would have won by further if he had jumped the last two better. Now destined to be an also ran in the National.
I posted on this forum that I did not buy the Envoi Allen hype. He was winning in small fields with no pace. As soon as he reached the big stage, his limitations were exposed. Although I thought he ran OK in the Champion Chase last week.
As for dear old Goshen, I place little value in juvenile form. They often struggle as five year olds, even the good ones. I doubt he would have beaten Honeysuckle even with a clear season without injury.
Up to a point, I take the view that Constitution Hill needs to win in open company – after all, I made the same point about Envoi Allen. However, the visual impact, backed up by the evidence of the overall clock and the sectional times, prove we witnessed something incredible last week. Far superior to anything Samcro, Envoi Allen or Goshen ever did.
Taken in isolation, it was a genuinely great performance well worthy of its lofty rating. I do not see how anyone could argue otherwise. In my opinion, the performance was so superlative that an exception can be made to the rule. He is entitled to be considered one of the greats in this performance alone.
It is rather like Zafonic in the Guineas. He never backed it up but his incredible performance would have won every Guineas of the last 50 years, with the exception of Frankel’s and possibly El Gran Senor and Dancing Brave. It would be absurd to deny his greatness.
To put things into a bit more perspective…
Jonbon kept Dysart Dynamo honest which ensured a fast gallop.
Constitution Hill wouldn’t win 22 lengths if the race was run like the Champion Hurdle.
Gavin Lynch timed both races from the last and a circuit, and Constitution Hill was approx. 4 lengths quicker than Honeysuckle off a faster gallop.
Connections of Honeysuckle are of the opinion that if the Champion Hurdle was run like the Supreme then Honeysuckle wins by further in a faster time.
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I agree with Gavin Lynch’s assessment that if they met this season in Ireland that Honeysuckle would win.
He would have to run to 173 and i don’t think he’s there yet.
I’ll take his 170 rating with a pinch of salt atm, sometimes a handicapper’s hand is forced by just a visual impression, a bit like when Bristol De Mai won at Haydock and got 173.I think it’ll be interesting to see how Constitution Hill gets on in a race which doesn’t necessarily play to his strengths. To me hes looked a strong stayer at 2M with a high cruising speed and that has seen him suited by the going at Sandown twice which was very testing and a very strongly run Supreme. Thinking ahead to next season iif this is to be the division he stays iin hes likely to face very small field races in the Fighting Fifth and either the International or Christmas Hurdle at Kempton. He may have to make his own running which may not suit. I suspect he has the class to cope but we might not see him to best effect in those scenarios.
Fwiw I think he’ll beat her next year partly because hes improving and has youth on his side whereas shes heading the other way you suspect.
I wonder if he’ll even run in the Fighting Fifth or the Xmas Hurdle, both of which were won this season by Epatante. Unless she retires, we’re faced with a season of Henderson soundbites about the lack of races, as we know full well he won’t run both in the same race before Cheltenham.
And if she does retire, where’s the opposition that can get CH out of first gear – Guard Your Dreams, Tommys Oscar, Goshen? Let’s face it, if you own or train one of those, you’re going to spend the summer planning a novice chase campaign!
CH could well arrive at Cheltenham next March having won a couple of four runner non events in which he started 1/10. In fact I might go looking for a cheap hurdler that I can run against him and pick up some easy place money.
‘When men make plans for the future the gods laugh;’ Confucius. Buddhism reaches us that the secret of happiness is to live in the now, the moment. Instead of celebrating the achievements of a remarkable unbeaten mare, unbeaten in the 2nd highest tier of jump racing, who very likely could have received a higher rating if she had been pushed, so many are drooling with anticipation over the possible future triumphs. I don’t recall Espoir d’Allens stunning victory being received in the same way.
“who very likely could have received a higher rating if she had been pushed”
Aye. Lets hope Seven Barrows walk the walk and turn up at Punchestown.
BUY THE SUN
“Unless she retires, we’re faced with a season of Henderson soundbites about the lack of races.”
There is the International Hurdle/Champion Hurdle Trial route for one of them. Henderson did it with Pentland Hills.
It looked like Blackmore had to push her quite hard to beat Epatante by 3 lengths last week.
I reckon the Henderson camp know Constitution Hill can beat Epatante by more than 3 lengths. I expect Jonbon can at least beat Epatante as well.
“What did you think about Pinatubo as a 2yo?
Good question.
He was a great….2yo.
THREE exceptional times proved that.
Amazing juvenile – an Arazi.
But he was a small colt and, while I hoped he’d be a Mill Reef (Pinatubo was bred for middle distances but was always thought a miler by connections) at three, I had reservations.
I have no such qualms with his fully-grown 5yo novice hurdler.
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