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Dettori’s comment of ‘If I had to choose between him and Enable I wouldn’t know who to ride’ is a telling statement in of itself.
My opinion has always been that Cracksman would have beaten Enable in the Arc (yesterday’s performance only gives more credence to that opinion) and I personally think that Gosden realised this and that was the reason why he didn’t want to run him and not all the nonsense that was spouted about him not being streetwise of mentally tough enough to deal with a race like the Arc. If that really was the case then how much more streetwise and mentally tough could he have gotten some scant 20 days later when you are tasking him to run in a G1 race over a trip 2F short of his best against older horses for the first time?
Gosden played the game perfectly in maximising his chances of winning two of the big middle distance all age races in Europe instead of throwing two darts at just one of the prizes, he knew Enable could win the Arc so how would it have looked had he got the star horse of the season beaten by another of his own horses and as a result missed out on the £737K prize at Ascot?
It worked out well for everyone except I guess for those who really would have liked to have seen the top middle distance star really tested this year but lets just hope that next season that question has a definitive answer.
Cracksman really looked like his sire in that race. Similar massive stride where they extend their forelegs so far in front with an unbended knee.
You could just about have switched Frankel and the colours and few would have noticed it was a different horse!!
It helps that he has similar markings – star and socks.
While it was a superb performance by cracksman I think the going has to be considered. While many horses handle it a lot don’t and when it’s as bad as that after a full day’s racing I’d wait till I see cracks man at the top level again before announcing him the next great thing. If it was on the firm side of good how close would Highland reel have got. I remember turtle island winning the Irish guineas by fifteen lengths but was then beaten in its next race. Cracks man has one tremendous grp 1 win in terrible conditions. Let’s wait and see how he does next season. Persuasive isn’t the best miler around as isn’t libriza breeze the best sprinter but on those conditions coped best. Too many getting their judgements clouded by the Frankel connection.
I’m seeing a fair bit of crabbing the form online and lots of “ah but!”
Middle distance champtionship group ones are not habitually won by seven lengths. I was on poets but the bleeding ****** obvious fact is that a master trainer and jockey knew they had something special on their hands. These two don’t piss about. And stoute got wind of it too and he knew what to do with Ulysses
What you see is what you get. I was there yesterday (thanks to someone’s generosity) and it was spine tingling. A I was there moment
Can we also accept that unlike highland reel and others this horse is almost certainly improving too
There is a difference between giving credit and completely going overboard.
Is Cracksman a Gr.1 animal? Absolutely.
Is he the 2nd best middle distance horse of 2017? Probably.
Has he proven that without a shadow of a doubt today? Absolutely not.Highland Reel was been beaten 12L by Jack Hobbs with soft in the description, and 9.25L by Enable. Today he was beaten 7.25L (over 2f shorter) in what everybody perceives to be a prep race for the BC Turf. All the other horses that finished directly behind Cracksman in the Champion Stakes, Voltigeur and Niel have weak Gr.2 wins at best.
Yet some people are suggesting Enable is lucky Cracksman didn´t turn up for the Arc and that if they meet tomorrow he´d be a clear favourite. Okay.
Gosden played his cards absolutely perfectly it seems. He knew he´d avoid likely defeat in the Arc, while getting a 2nd rate field in the Champions Stakes, and with the British desperation to make Champions Day happen, he would be guaranteed a massive rating, if he did it in style.
There’s also a difference between taking the absolute worst a performance could sound like and giving it the credit it deserves, Pete. You call it a “second rate field” and “Group 2 horses”. And yet the second was Poet’s Word. Yes, he is only a Group 3 winner; but last time out he was also second in the Group 1 Irish Champion Stakes. Difference is he was only just touched off by Decorated Knight by 1/2 length in that race; not 7 as Cracksman did. So on “form” you could say Cracksman is a 6 1/2 lengths better horse than Group 1 winner Decorated Knight. Now look at how far Decorated Knight was beaten by Ulysses in the Group 1 Prince Of Wales, 1 1/4 lengths. So on a line through Poet’s Word and Decorated Knight… Well, may be PW was a little below his Irish run yesterday, but it is extremely difficult to believe he was as far below it as you seem to believe.
There is no doubt Highland Reel was quite a long way below his best. But do you think he ran exactly the same amount below form on every time he ran on soft ground? Surely it is best to take a look at how far Cracksman beat other horses before judging him on Highland Reel?
Another one of your “second rate field” Recoletos was beaten a total of 8 lengths by Cracksman. He had been beaten only just over a length by Brametot in the Group 1 French Derby. Just a short head behind the second Waldgeist… who went on to be less than two lengths behind Capri in the Group 1 Irish Derby.
Another “second rater” Desert Encounter, beaten 9 1/2 lengths by Cracksman, beaten around 3 1/2 in the Group 1 Eclipse by Ulysses etc etc.
Now I am not saying all those form lines are reliable, and yes, the horses Cracksman beat were not top top class. But the distances/manner of victory leaves no doubt Cracksman is something special. There is on form… plenty of room between Cracksman and Poet’s Word to fit Group 1 winners like Ulysses, Decorated Knight, Brametot, Capri and on colaterol form they would’ve all been beaten quite a long way too.
The trouble with all these distances in lengths won by is that no two races are the same and so many different things to take into account that you can only use them as a very rough guide rather than pin point accuracy. The going, course, different training methods, luck or not so in running, easing up when beaten, different pace to races, different tactics, trainer form at the time etc the list can go on and on.
Both horse are top class though but Cracksman would win the match up…..
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Clive you will always get people crabbing form, especially soft ground form; only natural – it can’t always be relied upon. But you saw what you saw and, from the vibes coming out of JG’s yard over the last few weeks, they kind of knew what they had. I was fully expecting him to be a 130+ horse next year but not necessarily over 10f. To put in that performance over a trip short of this best is very impressive even taking the conditions into account. He has clearly improved so much and, just physically, looked in a different league to his rivals. There will always be debate – there was even with Frankel – so Cracksman will just have to keep silencing his doubters like his daddy did!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
The doubters ought to have another look at the replay. Cracksman took it up turning in and the race was over. Races like that are normally just developing at that point. This is borne out by ignoring Cracksman and watching the ‘real race’ pan out behind him where, after a battle, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th, draw clear of those behind illustrating the way that 99.9% of races develop and finish.
Cracksman powered away with nothing more than hands and heels riding and three very soft slaps. At the point where the runner-up hit the line, Cracksman was almost as far clear still as when he had crossed the line.
The volotigeur and niel where weak races, it was impressive but it wasnt at the highest level, i wasnt sold on the form
But you cannot argue that yesterday he put group 1 “performers” to bed without a fuss, if the ground was good, highland reel would have finished closer, maybe a fair bit closer, but cracksman had so much left to give that it wouldnt have made a difference
Wasnt the biggest cracksman fan, like i said a few pages back i hoped for next seasons sake that him or barney won, i was sold yesterday.
He is by no means a frankel, but he may prove a pretty usefull 4yo,
Ulysses wouldnt have won in that manner yesterday, enough said.
“As will be seen by other British Champions Day sectionals below, Cracksman achieved the notable feat of running the final furlong quicker – in 13.0s flat – than any other winner on a card, which included a Group 1 sprint and a Group 1 mile. Just how good could he be when returned to a mile and a half?!”
Wow!
“As will be seen by other British Champions Day sectionals below, Cracksman achieved the notable feat of running the final furlong quicker – in 13.0s flat – than any other winner on a card, which included a Group 1 sprint and a Group 1 mile. Just how good could he be when returned to a mile and a half?!”
Wow!
And that’s without having anything to race with. Nor was the whip raised in anger.
It was a one horse race from a long way out. Brametot and Barney Roy never showed up, the latter horse was utterly useless on the day and Brametot was typical of French horses in the UK of late. It’s not been a vintage year for the Gallic produce.
Cliffs Of Moher was poor and I had given up on him a few runs ago. Recoletos ran quite well but he’s always looked a short runner to me. He sped away from Akihiro and Waldgeist in the trial for the French Derby but seemed to run out of puff in the big one. I reckon the horse is worth a try at a mile myself. Not saying he’s a Solow in the making but I feel he has more speed than stamina.
I don’t think it was that strong a field but it’s foolish to take anything away from the performance.
The vexing thing for me is Cracksman was my main Derby bet at 14/1 and he just didn’t pick up well enough that day. Again in the Irish version he looked short of putting his stamp on a race that was winnable.
If we took yesterday’s Cracksman back to Epsom and the Curragh, he would have been one of the easiest double Derby winners in a long while and I would have been farting £20 notes like tracer bullets. C’est la vie as they say in France, along with Cheval Merde Maintenant
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
There is a difference between giving credit and completely going overboard.
Is Cracksman a Gr.1 animal? Absolutely.
Is he the 2nd best middle distance horse of 2017? Probably.
Has he proven that without a shadow of a doubt today? Absolutely not.Highland Reel was been beaten 12L by Jack Hobbs with soft in the description, and 9.25L by Enable. Today he was beaten 7.25L (over 2f shorter) in what everybody perceives to be a prep race for the BC Turf. All the other horses that finished directly behind Cracksman in the Champion Stakes, Voltigeur and Niel have weak Gr.2 wins at best.
Yet some people are suggesting Enable is lucky Cracksman didn´t turn up for the Arc and that if they meet tomorrow he´d be a clear favourite. Okay.
Gosden played his cards absolutely perfectly it seems. He knew he´d avoid likely defeat in the Arc, while getting a 2nd rate field in the Champions Stakes, and with the British desperation to make Champions Day happen, he would be guaranteed a massive rating, if he did it in style.
There’s also a difference between taking the absolute worst a performance could sound like and giving it the credit it deserves, Pete. You call it a “second rate field” and “Group 2 horses”. And yet the second was Poet’s Word. Yes, he is only a Group 3 winner; but last time out he was also second in the Group 1 Irish Champion Stakes. Difference is he was only just touched off by Decorated Knight by 1/2 length in that race; not 7 as Cracksman did. So on “form” you could say Cracksman is a 6 1/2 lengths better horse than Group 1 winner Decorated Knight. Now look at how far Decorated Knight was beaten by Ulysses in the Group 1 Prince Of Wales, 1 1/4 lengths. So on a line through Poet’s Word and Decorated Knight… Well, may be PW was a little below his Irish run yesterday, but it is extremely difficult to believe he was as far below it as you seem to believe.
There is no doubt Highland Reel was quite a long way below his best. But do you think he ran exactly the same amount below form on every time he ran on soft ground? Surely it is best to take a look at how far Cracksman beat other horses before judging him on Highland Reel?
Another one of your “second rate field” Recoletos was beaten a total of 8 lengths by Cracksman. He had been beaten only just over a length by Brametot in the Group 1 French Derby. Just a short head behind the second Waldgeist… who went on to be less than two lengths behind Capri in the Group 1 Irish Derby.
Another “second rater” Desert Encounter, beaten 9 1/2 lengths by Cracksman, beaten around 3 1/2 in the Group 1 Eclipse by Ulysses etc etc.
Now I am not saying all those form lines are reliable, and yes, the horses Cracksman beat were not top top class. But the distances/manner of victory leaves no doubt Cracksman is something special. There is on form… plenty of room between Cracksman and Poet’s Word to fit Group 1 winners like Ulysses, Decorated Knight, Brametot, Capri and on colaterol form they would’ve all been beaten quite a long way too.
The trouble with all these distances in lengths won by is that no two races are the same and so many different things to take into account that you can only use them as a very rough guide rather than pin point accuracy. The going, course, different training methods, luck or not so in running, easing up when beaten, different pace to races, different tactics, trainer form at the time etc the list can go on and on.
Both horse are top class though but Cracksman would win the match up….. As I said in the last paragraph, Nathan; “I am not saying all those form lines are reliable”, some form lines are more reliable than others and yes, there are many things that can affect the result
Take a look at Recoletos for one of the most reliable. According to Racing Post he’s put up an identical RPR rating of 114 in four of his last five races, all from 10 to 12 furlongs and all on a soft surface, including on very soft. Timeform’s assessment of Recoletos is of similar consistency.
imo There’s a large probability Recoletus ran to form… and a massive probability he was no more than a few pounds below his best, which would still put Cracksman in the superstar class. Yes, that also means there’s still a small possibility of Recoletos being more than 3 pounds below form. We can never be 100% sure, but Recoletos’s form together with other form lines strongly suggest this was a very special performance.
Of course things like luck in running and horses having an off day or just running slightly below form need to be taken in to account when assessing lengths beaten. But if you do not try to take “lengths” in to account then Cracksman is no better than Decorated Knight. Handicapping horses is an inexact science, with a lot to take in to account; but lengths beaten is an important part of the science, especially when the clock backs it up.
Value Is EverythingI know it’s incredible unlikely to happen but if I hand a hand in Coolmore I’d be pushing for Cliffs Of Moher to move stables to England with either Stoute or Gosden (who they do have horses with). I think a change of scenery and a campaign on decent ground next year will really help the colt along with his progression but I worry he’ll be lost to the process if he stays with O’Brien.
I know it’s incredible unlikely to happen but if I hand a hand in Coolmore I’d be pushing for Cliffs Of Moher to move stables to England with either Stoute or Gosden (who they do have horses with). I think a change of scenery and a campaign on decent ground next year will really help the colt along with his progression but I worry he’ll be lost to the process if he stays with O’Brien.
It’s a good point. I almost hate to say it about a genius trainer who is about to break Bobby Frankel’s record, but he is not a trainer who gets the best out of every horse he trains – only the chosen ones. With the riches at his disposal I suppose it is inevitable but yes I think Cliffs would benefit from a change of stable – though it may be too late for him now. He looks horribly exposed. To see him used as cannon fodder in the Juddmonte was disappointing. It makes me laugh that Hydrangea is now a dual group 1 winner almost by accident. I backed her in the Guineas and she was used as a pacemaker and finished out with the washing. Others like The Anvil and Douglas Macarthur are probably better than they have been allowed to be as they are frequently sacrificed for their stable companions.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Does anyone think that a lot of these top trainers success is down to their careful use of magic polos
Officialy rated the best in europe with a 130 rating
A slight exaggeration, he was extremely impressive at the weekend
But are we really suggesting that he could have or would have done what enables done all season to better fields
Not so sure, i think rating him the same as ulysses would have been a fair enough reaction, afterall he has only won 1 group 1, clearly capable of winning more, but a slight over reaction id say
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