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Firstly Jonibake it shows how desperate you are to come up with that one
UM i know what a paragraph is,however this is a racing forum,not an essay writing competition 
My posts may look like a ramble when those not wanting to know feel under a bit of pressure! Oh would that be the same William Shakespeare who there was much evidence was illiterate!!! Sorry old chap, a fair chance that it was just another Mary/Dick Francis con Ok Joni, just to make you feel better ok!It was beautiful sunny day with a warm wispish breeze as i Jonibake arose from sleep adorned in my beautiful Frankel pyjamas. etc etc etc
As the morning breeze picked up to a wildish wind i looked at my Frankel coffee cup, kissed it and said "it is going almost as fast as you old boy" etc etc etc
With morning now turning into afternoon i strode purposefully into Asda as i was on a mission which just prior i had failed to complete at Sainsburys. etc etc etc
My mission you ask? To buy the much sought after Frankel tea set! My eyes bulged with eager joy as at last i had spotted it!!! To my horror a woman with glee in her eye was eyeing my beautiful Frankel off as well
etc etc etcWe jostled a cup fell to the floor "oh my god" Tom Queally had lost his head
As i continued and baffled the woman with sheer wordsmithery she dejectly departed knowing she had been beaten by sheer brilliance of the mind.I didn’t like her,she reminded me of Black Caviar and almost embarrased herself as she ‘slowly’ walked out the door.etc etc etcNight had by now fallen a smile formed on my face as i sat on my throne in my Frankel slippers.Sipping my tea out of my beautiful new Frankel cup making sure i avoided cutting my lip on Tom Queally’s now headless torso.etc etc etc
Just before sleep had taken me for the night, shaping my pillow(now adorned in a beautiful Frankel pillowcase) i pondered ‘could life get any better than this’.etc etc etc
As eyes wearied with sleep winning i thought with my last conscious memory,yes but only if i moved to Australia.
The End.
See – now that wasnt so hard was it!!! Genius Jolly!!!
The scary thing is you are not far from the truth with some of that. I DO have a Frankel mug!!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Firstly Jonibake it shows how desperate you are to come up with that one
UM i know what a paragraph is,however this is a racing forum,not an essay writing competition My posts may look like a ramble when those not wanting to know feel under a bit of pressure! Oh would that be the same William Shakespeare who there was much evidence was illiterate!!! Sorry old chap, a fair chance that it was just another Mary/Dick Francis con Ok Joni, just to make you feel better ok!It was beautiful sunny day with a warm wispish breeze as i Jonibake arose from sleep adorned in my beautiful Frankel pyjamas. etc etc etc
As the morning breeze picked up to a wildish wind i looked at my Frankel coffee cup, kissed it and said "it is going almost as fast as you old boy" etc etc etc
With morning now turning into afternoon i strode purposefully into Asda as i was on a mission which just prior i had failed to complete at Sainsburys. etc etc etc
My mission you ask? To buy the much sought after Frankel tea set! My eyes bulged with eager joy as at last i had spotted it!!! To my horror a woman with glee in her eye was eyeing my beautiful Frankel off as well
etc etc etcWe jostled a cup fell to the floor "oh my god" Tom Queally had lost his head
As i continued and baffled the woman with sheer wordsmithery she dejectly departed knowing she had been beaten by sheer brilliance of the mind.I didn’t like her,she reminded me of Black Caviar and almost embarrased herself as she ‘slowly’ walked out the door.etc etc etcNight had by now fallen a smile formed on my face as i sat on my throne in my Frankel slippers.Sipping my tea out of my beautiful new Frankel cup making sure i avoided cutting my lip on Tom Queally’s now headless torso.etc etc etc
Just before sleep had taken me for the night, shaping my pillow(now adorned in a beautiful Frankel pillowcase) i pondered ‘could life get any better than this’.etc etc etc
As eyes wearied with sleep winning i thought with my last conscious memory,yes but only if i moved to Australia.
The End.
See – now that wasnt so hard was it!!! Genius Jolly!!!
The scary thing is you are not far from the truth with some of that. I DO have a Frankel mug!!!!
I kid you not Joni the plot originally involved Frankel’s head breaking off the cup instead of Tom Q,however i thought you may throw yourself under a train!
Yet more posts with numbers of Group 1 races so many good horses have won. Have you ever thought Jollyp, that with so many horses winning loads of Group 1 races – those Group 1 races may not be as difficult to win as they should be?
I am not against Handicaps Jollyp, far from it. Usually stay up to watch the Melbourne Cup live. Love to see top weights winning them. However, being handicaps mean sometimes bottom weights are victorious; horses that
quality-wise
should NOT be allowed to win "Group 1s". Therefore, to call handicaps "Group 1" is stupid, hence my laugh.
Absolutely loved Makybe Diva, wonderful mare, one of my favourite horses of all time. I had a tear in my eye when winning her third Melbourne Cup; an exception. In my opinion better than Yeats when taking in to account the sex allowance. Could’ve started favourite had she come over to Ascot. Yeats was good, but only won the number of Gold Cups because of comparitively poor opposition. In fact, it may well be he wasn’t the best stayer in the stable. Septimus probably wasn’t as reliable/versatile, but at his best awesome. Didn’t get the opportunities given to his stable companion. Shame he finished badly lame in the 2008 Melbourne Cup and never raced again.
If you want to see real top quality stayers Jollyp, look up Ardross and Le Moss on Youtube.
Forgive me Jollyp, for not replying to your questions, we’ll only be going around in circles if I do.
P.S. Why is there any need to "quote" every post when your reply comes directly after that quoted post?
Value Is EverythingYet more posts with numbers of Group 1 races so many good horses have won. Have you ever thought Jollyp, that with so many horses winning loads of Group 1 races – those Group 1 races may not be as difficult to win as they should be?
I am not against Handicaps Jollyp, far from it. Usually stay up to watch the Melbourne Cup live. Love to see top weights winning them. However, being handicaps mean sometimes bottom weights are victorious; horses that
quality-wise
should NOT be allowed to win "Group 1s". Therefore, to call handicaps "Group 1" is stupid, hence my laugh.
Absolutely loved Makybe Diva, wonderful mare, one of my favourite horses of all time. I had a tear in my eye when winning her third Melbourne Cup; an exception. In my opinion better than Yeats when taking in to account the sex allowance. Could’ve started favourite had she come over to Ascot. Yeats was good, but only won the number of Gold Cups because of comparitively poor opposition. In fact, it may well be he wasn’t the best stayer in the stable. Septimus probably wasn’t as reliable/versatile, but at his best awesome. Didn’t get the opportunities given to his stable companion. Shame he finished badly lame in the 2008 Melbourne Cup and never raced again.
If you want to see real top quality stayers Jollyp, look up Ardross and Le Moss on Youtube.
P.S. Why is there any need to "quote" every post when your reply comes directly after that quoted post?
Because it is in relation to the reply Saying that because Northerly and Sunline won so many Group 1’s is maybe because they were not that difficult to win is that far off the mark! Northerly would have competed well anywhere in the world,Sunline only had 1 sojourn overseas and won the Hong Kong mile beating the local legend Fairy King Prawn himself a G1 winner in Japan as well.As for handicaps we probably have both the staying and sprint championships of the world being the Melbourne Cup and the Newmarket Hcp.These races are also good for horses rising through the ranks who can get in light which Barakey will be trying to do in the Newmarket.They have every right to be a Group 1,ensure big competitive fields and both have been won by great horses.Don’t confuse the usual meaning of mediocrity for handicap with these 2 class races.The Diva won 3 cups so the weight did not beat her and Black Caviar blitzed them in the Newmarket with 58kg.So mocking these handicaps is way off the mark. They have WFA races at bush places here like Mount Isa should we promote them to Group 1’s GT because they are WFA? Where does it state a Group 1 must be WFA? That is why the races are named Group 1 ‘Handicaps’!They are probably harder to win then a WFA Group 1 !Jollyp,
You talked up Gai, saying how many Group 1 races she’d won compared with Sir Henry Cecil. Coggy then rightly said your comparison of Waterhouse with Cecil, "one of the greatest trainers ever" was "laughable/deluded". He didNOT
dispute the numbers of Group 1 wins, just the significance of that stat… ie It was not a
fair comparison
and Sir Henry is a
better
trainer than Gai…
You called his statement "
stupid
" and "
one eyed
"; yet go on to say yourself "
I am not a particularly big fan of Gai’s"
.
So please tell us Jollyp, in your opinion is Gai as good a trainer as Sir Henry (and why?)!
There you go again! I am not a particular fan of Gai the person! See this is always the pompous argument there.Ah you people are classics head firmly stuck up your rear end.I think there are better trainers then Gai but i have a list of trainers better than Cecil,you need to be versatile as a trainer and not need pacemakers.I can give you a list of French and Australian trainers who would rate above Cecil.Calling a statement comparing 2 trainers,one having trained more group 1 winners then the other in half the time laugable/deluded shows the air of supremacy a lot of you seem to have.How many group 1’s have English trainers prepared in Australia? How many have Australian trainers prepared in England!!! Put that in your pompous arrogant pipe and smoke it pal!!! As mentioned before in regards to Manighar Cumani 14 starts no wins 9 unplaced runs, Between de Royer-Dupre and Moody 17 starts 10wins 6 placings
Game set match!Jollyp,
I don’t throw insults at you, so why do you do so to me? May be it is because you know you’re losing the arguement.We’re not supremacists you know! You Aussies like to think of youselves as being put upon by the Poms. About time you take responsibility.
There’s no disputing Australian sprinters are top class. Can and do go all over the World. Must have a unique training regime or food or something that works wonders; muscle definition quite remarkable.
Just a shame that with few exceptions you aren’t successful with any other distance group. How many Australian NON-sprinters have Australians prepared to win a Northern Hemisphere Group/Grade 1?
Once again, you go on and on (yawn) about the number of Group 1 winners Aussies have won, but Australian Group 1s are inferior quality, so they’re easier to win. Hence why you buy European second raters to win them.
Ofcourse nobody (well, very few), not even Europeans actually try to breed stayers. But some bred for middle-distances ultimately prove suited by another half mile. Fact is your horses that turn out to be stayers aren’t good enough to get in to the Melbourne Cup these days, let alone win it. Needing to buy better quality horses from Europe.
You ask How many group 1’s have English trainers prepared in Australia? Fact is it is not worth the risk of taking our best horses over there; as most of your best races are handicaps, not weight for age. And our best horses are often handicapped out of things by your handicapper. (My) Quest For Peace (5th but beaten less than 2 lengths) by French horse Dunaden in this year’s Caulfield Cup. Yet (My) Quest For Peace is only a Group 3 winner over here. Dunaden only been placed at Group 2 level in Europe; beaten by Sea Moon in the Hardwicke (Group 2). At the time of his 6th (in Britain’s premiere open aged WFA 1m4f Group 1) connections hoped Dunaden capable of winning the Arc; he wasn’t so they went pot hunting in Oz.
All The Good (2008) and Taufan’s Melody (1998) won Australia’s premiere middle distance Group 1, the Caulfield Cup (a handicap ); yet neither were Group horses in Britain, let alone Group 1.We don’t take anywhere near our best horses to Australia Jollyp, so to judge the record of our second (or third) raters as if they are somehow representitive of our best – is foolish in the extreme.
Why not take a look at what Dunaden did in Britain/Europe before thinking your horses are so good. There’s a reason why you only bring sprinters here!
I’m still looking forward to Jollyp’s promised list of Australian and French trainers that are supposedly better than Sir Henry. I can hardly wait for my education !
This thread is turning a bit distasteful – have some people forgotten that all are entitled to their opinion?
I can understand Jolly’s points. Trainers are only as good as their ammunition. The much lauded Cecil proved that during his dark years. Why is it fanciful that someone from another country can do their job equally well, or better, than Cecil?
And Ginger – Septimus better than Yeats? No chance.
This thread is turning a bit distasteful – have some people forgotten that all are entitled to their opinion?
I can understand Jolly’s points. Trainers are only as good as their ammunition. The much lauded Cecil proved that during his dark years. Why is it fanciful that someone from another country can do their job equally well, or better, than Cecil?
And Ginger – Septimus better than Yeats? No chance.
You will no doubt notice that no comment on this thread from me is distasteful.
Sir Henry has proved that true ability will always prevail, as per his recent renaissance , and his struggle to overcome his health issues.
Who has stated that it is fanciful that someone from elsewhere can do a remarkable training operation ?
I previously mentioned greats such as O’Brien and Fabre.
I still await with interest the list of trainers that are better than Sir Henry.Yet more posts with numbers of Group 1 races so many good horses have won. Have you ever thought Jollyp, that with so many horses winning loads of Group 1 races – those Group 1 races may not be as difficult to win as they should be?
I am not against Handicaps Jollyp, far from it. Usually stay up to watch the Melbourne Cup live. Love to see top weights winning them. However, being handicaps mean sometimes bottom weights are victorious; horses that
quality-wise
should NOT be allowed to win "Group 1s". Therefore, to call handicaps "Group 1" is stupid, hence my laugh.
Absolutely loved Makybe Diva, wonderful mare, one of my favourite horses of all time. I had a tear in my eye when winning her third Melbourne Cup; an exception. In my opinion better than Yeats when taking in to account the sex allowance. Could’ve started favourite had she come over to Ascot. Yeats was good, but only won the number of Gold Cups because of comparitively poor opposition. In fact, it may well be he wasn’t the best stayer in the stable. Septimus probably wasn’t as reliable/versatile, but at his best awesome. Didn’t get the opportunities given to his stable companion. Shame he finished badly lame in the 2008 Melbourne Cup and never raced again.
If you want to see real top quality stayers Jollyp, look up Ardross and Le Moss on Youtube.
P.S. Why is there any need to "quote" every post when your reply comes directly after that quoted post?
Because it is in relation to the reply Saying that because Northerly and Sunline won so many Group 1’s is maybe because they were not that difficult to win is that far off the mark! Northerly would have competed well anywhere in the world,Sunline only had 1 sojourn overseas and won the Hong Kong mile beating the local legend Fairy King Prawn himself a G1 winner in Japan as well.As for handicaps we probably have both the staying and sprint championships of the world being the Melbourne Cup and the Newmarket Hcp.These races are also good for horses rising through the ranks who can get in light which Barakey will be trying to do in the Newmarket.They have every right to be a Group 1,ensure big competitive fields and both have been won by great horses.Don’t confuse the usual meaning of mediocrity for handicap with these 2 class races.The Diva won 3 cups so the weight did not beat her and Black Caviar blitzed them in the Newmarket with 58kg.So mocking these handicaps is way off the mark. They have WFA races at bush places here like Mount Isa should we promote them to Group 1’s GT because they are WFA? Where does it state a Group 1 must be WFA? That is why the races are named Group 1 ‘Handicaps’!They are probably harder to win then a WFA Group 1 !I am not disputing Northerly and Sunline were good horses, undoubtedly "Group 1 class" Jollyp. It’s just that the quality of
some
of those Group 1 races is not what we in Europe would expect a Group 1 to be. ie because of the
(comparitively) weak opposition
– Northerly and Sunline only had to turn up to win some of your
weaker
Group 1s.
There’s little doubt that the
average
British/French/Irish Group 1 takes a
better rating
to win it than the
average
Australian Group 1. Please note: I am not saying all your Group 1 races are poorer than ours, just the "average". But therefore, it stands to reason it takes
less
ability (rating-wise) for an Australian horse to rack-up a string of Group 1’s – than it does a British/Irish/French horse.
You’re also misunderstanding me about why I am not in favour of handicaps being Group 1s. I have no problem with the standard of the winners when top weights like Makybe Diva, Notherly or Sunline win them. In those races the standard of the winner means the race deserves to be a "Group 1"…
But in my opinion (after weight for age and sex is allowed for) the horse who puts up the BEST PERFORMANCE in any GROUP 1 should WIN the race. That is simply NOT true of handicaps won by bottom or sometimes even middle-weighted horses. Shocking won the Melbourne Cup by 3/4 length from Crime Scene. Yet Crime Scene was giving 5 lbs, so the only reason Shocking won the race was the handicapper! (Allotting weight). Shocking put up a worse performance in the race than Crime Scene – yet it is Shocking who goes in to the record books as winning the "Group 1". That’s shocking as far as I am concerned, a real crime scene.
Group 1’s should always be won by the best horse on the day.
Otherwise (in my book) it isn’t a Group 1.
Value Is EverythingThe laughable thing is here is
Black Claviers
Dam:
Helsinge
Was Sired by A
Sir Henry Cecil
Trained
(CLASS D)
Horse
Desert Sun
So keep calling him Jollyp
You Rascal
This thread is turning a bit distasteful – have some people forgotten that all are entitled to their opinion?
I can understand Jolly’s points. Trainers are only as good as their ammunition. The much lauded Cecil proved that during his dark years. Why is it fanciful that someone from another country can do their job equally well, or better, than Cecil?
And Ginger – Septimus better than Yeats? No chance.
Exactly my point Peruvian Chief! Trainers are only as good as their ammunition.Why should it be fanciful that someone can do the job better than Cecil or equally as well. You absolutely hit the nail on the head with the point i have been trying to get across!!! If we have mulitple group 1 winners here than the class must be poor,i point out that a trainer has won more Group 1’s in half the time than another i am called deluded,in need of help.Probably the best one is that someone doesn’t agree with me that some horses improve with different traing methods or there maybe better trainers than Cecil so they call me a red neck!GT i am not going to bother with a response it is pointless and Coggy T.J Smith won 16 chelmsford Stks a Group 2 and world record for a trainer winning a group race,2 Melbourne Cups,4 Caulfield Cups,7 W S Cox Plates,6 Golden Slippers,33 straight Trainers titles in Sydney and an incredible 35 Derby wins(though because he is an Australian trainer it automatically means much less to some of you there). Andre Fabre 7 Arc’s,there is 2 for you,i could mention Bart and a couple of other French legends but it is pointless.Finally thank you Peruvian Chief not for agreeing with a couple of points but for actually having the guts to say so.It seems at times that even if in agreeance on a couple of points such as these that people would shun saying so as not to put the ‘old boys’ offside.
The laughable thing is here is
Black Claviers
Dam:
Helsinge
Was Sired by A
Sir Henry Cecil
Trained
(CLASS D)
Horse
Desert Sun
So keep calling him Jollyp
You Rascal
Desert Sun is also the sire of Sunline:) Let me educate you my friend on breeding.The best horses don’t always make a sire,the best mares can breed very slow horses,go and educate yourself on breeding before you make yourself look a bigger fool.If you mean that Cecil trained him and was therefore responsible in part for the making of Black Caviar, again increase your knowledge as it doesn’t matter who trains a sire they will still be what they are as a sire;it has nothing to do with who has trained them.
What do i need educated about? Cecil trained
Desert Sun
if he would of went to any other trainer he would of have his Nuts off way before going to any breeding shed Meaning no
Black Caviar
so lick his feet.
What do i need educated about? Cecil trained
Desert Sun
if he would of went to any other trainer he would of have his Nuts off way before going to any breeding shed Meaning no
Black Caviar
so lick his feet.
It wasn’t Cecil’s choice it was the owner of Desert Sun who kept him intact,and lick his feet! We don’t lick anyone’s feet pal
Our comeback would be you can lick my… no wont go there Jollyp,
Black Caviar is one of (if not THE) best sprinter/s in the last 70+ years (whoever sire’d her does not matter). Don’t let God wind you up.In the first part of this thread you compared Gai Waterhouse with Sir Henry. That comparison is (imo) nonsense. Had you compared SHC with Bart, it might have been a different conversation. If there was an Australian of that ilk it is surely he?
P.S Sir Henry is to play himself in Newmarket’s nativity play this week.
Value Is EverythingJollyp,
Black Caviar is one of (if not THE) best sprinter/s in the last 70+ years (whoever sire’d her does not matter). Don’t let God wind you up.In the first part of this thread you compared Gai Waterhouse with Sir Henry. That comparison is (imo) nonsense. Had you compared SHC with Bart, it might have been a different conversation. If there was an Australian of that ilk it is surely he?
P.S Sir Henry is to play himself in Newmarket’s nativity play this week.
That is good of Sir Henry to do that GT.Though i think we have better trainers here than Gai,Waterhouse’s record is probably as good as anyone in the world who has been in the game for only 20 years,114 Group 1 wins,how that can be construed as nonsense, a joke,or other i do not know,completely beyond me. And i will call it a day at that.Just for you Jonibake,i know it is poor form to start a sentence with’And’.
P.S Sir Henry is to play himself in Newmarket’s nativity play this week.
That is good of Sir Henry to do that GT.
Just in case anyone turns up at Newmarket’s nativity (if there is one) expecting Sir H to have a part… It was a joke.
ie He is God in these parts!Value Is Everything
UM i know what a paragraph is,however this is a racing forum,not an essay writing competition 
My posts may look like a ramble when those not wanting to know feel under a bit of pressure! Oh would that be the same William Shakespeare who there was much evidence was illiterate!!! Sorry old chap, a fair chance that it was just another Mary/Dick Francis con 
etc etc etc
As i continued and baffled the woman with sheer wordsmithery she dejectly departed knowing she had been beaten by sheer brilliance of the mind.I didn’t like her,she reminded me of Black Caviar and almost embarrased herself as she ‘slowly’ walked out the door.etc etc etc
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