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Jollyp,
You started by saying Gai Waterhouse is as good a trainer as Sir Henry Cecil… And later on say you don’t rate Gai Waterhouse, "I am not a particularly big fan of Gai’s".
You criticise British trained horses for not winning the Melbourne Cup. But the race is a handicap, they need to be well handicapped to win it. Therefore, it could easily be argued the only person who’s stopped the British from winning – is the Australian Handicapper!
What is very apparent from recent Melbourne Cups is the Aussies breeding industry is in big trouble. Either that, or their training methods (which you seem to extol the virtues) are seriously flawed. Curtailing almost any chance of younger horses improving into classy stayers. How many Australian bred horses ran in the Melbourne Cup? Out of 24 runners just 2 AUS, with 4 from NZ. Australian trainers/owners now need to look at Europe to buy a horse good enough to even run in "the race that stops a Nation", let alone win it. Middle-distances aren’t much better; with second rate European horses being bought in the hope they might have a bit more improvement in them.
Didn’t know about all the doping problems in Oz, doesn’t surprise me after the Takeover Target case.
You moan about British always thinking they are the best. Yet you’ve gone on and on about how good the Aussies are, with little explanation; just name calling. Number of Grade 1 wins mean little when they aren’t as competitive – or take a performance good enough to win European (GB, Ire, Fr) Group 1’s.
You like saying about our Colonial past, but that’s what it is, in the past. Every country has the rite to come out of the Commanwealth. Go on, make our day! May be you should look at how the Australian Government has treated Aborigines.
Value Is EverythingJollyp,
You started by saying Gai Waterhouse is as good a trainer as Sir Henry Cecil… And later on say you don’t rate Gai Waterhouse, "I am not a particularly big fan of Gai’s".
You criticise British trained horses for not winning the Melbourne Cup. But the race is a handicap, they need to be well handicapped to win it. Therefore, it could easily be argued the only person who’s stopped the British from winning – is the Australian Handicapper!
What is very apparent from recent Melbourne Cups is the Aussies breeding industry is in big trouble. Either that, or their training methods (which you seem to extol the virtues) are seriously flawed. Curtailing almost any chance of younger horses improving into classy stayers. How many Australian bred horses ran in the Melbourne Cup? Out of 24 runners just 2 AUS, with 4 from NZ. Australian trainers/owners now need to look at Europe to buy a horse good enough to even run in "the race that stops a Nation", let alone win it. Middle-distances aren’t much better; with second rate European horses being bought in the hope they might have a bit more improvement in them.
Didn’t know about all the doping problems in Oz, doesn’t surprise me after the Takeover Target case.
You moan about British always thinking they are the best. Yet you’ve gone on and on about how good the Aussies are, with little explanation; just name calling. Number of Grade 1 wins mean little when they aren’t as competitive – or take a performance good enough to win European (GB, Ire, Fr) Group 1’s.
You like saying about our Colonial past, but that’s what it is, in the past. Every country has the rite to come out of the Commanwealth. Go on, make our day! May be you should look at how the Australian Government has treated Aborigines.
Why didn’t you just cut and paste GT the same thing every time! I never compared Gai and Cecil except for Group 1’s so dont put words in my mouth.The breeding industry is flying here so you are talking rubbish,why breed a 2 miler for only 2 races on the calender.We have a big % of working class who are owners here they like to breed for the races on offer.As for Takeover Target he didn’t have any positives show around the world apart from Hong Kong and it has been explained it was due to injury recuperation.I could educate you on horses and horse racing,so to say i just come on name calling is bullsh#t,i give you a lot of facts.We buy European middle distance horses because it has been proven time and time again they can be improved with different training methods.Most importantly dont go getting on about human rights pal! Your constabulary started shooting Aborigines when they first sailed over!!! Your record isn’t great over the years so dont try that one out you will be shooting yourself in the foot
As for name calling your mate called me a red neck so dont be so obvious in your one eyed double standards! Stick to your fractions!!!I am not "putting words in to your mouth" Jollyp, just look at your conversation with Coggy.
The comparison of her with Cecil is frankly laughable.
Anyone who thinks that she is in the same league as the latter is either deluded or in need of some professional help.
Whilst not denying that she is a good trainer you are comparing her to undoubtedly one of the greatest trainers ever, in my view. My own racing memories only stretch back to the seventies, but Sir Henry , Vincent O’Brien and Andre Fabre are the three that stand outWhat a stupid statement by you! It smacks of being one eyed only able to see in your own back yard! The fact is she has trained more Group 1’s then Cecil!
Jollyp,
You talked up Gai, saying how many Group 1 races she’d won compared with Sir Henry Cecil. Coggy then rightly said your comparison of Waterhouse with Cecil, "one of the greatest trainers ever" was "laughable/deluded". He didNOT
dispute the numbers of Group 1 wins, just the significance of that stat… ie It was not a
fair comparison
and Sir Henry is a
better
trainer than Gai…
You called his statement "
stupid
" and "
one eyed
"; yet go on to (seemingly) agree with Coggy, saying "
I am not a particularly big fan of Gai’s"
.
So please tell us Jollyp, in your opinion is Gai as good a trainer as Sir Henry or not?!
Value Is EverythingThe comparison of her with Cecil is frankly laughable.
Anyone who thinks that she is in the same league as the latter is either deluded or in need of some professional help.
Whilst not denying that she is a good trainer you are comparing her to undoubtedly one of the greatest trainers ever, in my view. My own racing memories only stretch back to the seventies, but Sir Henry , Vincent O’Brien and Andre Fabre are the three that stand outWhat a stupid statement by you! It smacks of being one eyed only able to see in your own back yard! The fact is she has trained more Group 1’s then Cecil!
Jollyp,
You talked up Gai, saying how many Group 1 races she’d won compared with Sir Henry Cecil. Coggy then rightly said your comparison of Waterhouse with Cecil, "one of the greatest trainers ever" was "laughable/deluded". He didNOT
dispute the numbers of Group 1 wins, just the significance of that stat… ie It was not a
fair comparison
and Sir Henry is a
better
trainer than Gai…
You called his statement "
stupid
" and "
one eyed
"; yet go on to say yourself "
I am not a particularly big fan of Gai’s"
.
So please tell us Jollyp, in your opinion is Gai as good a trainer as Sir Henry (and why?)!
There you go again! I am not a particular fan of Gai the person! See this is always the pompous argument there.Ah you people are classics head firmly stuck up your rear end.I think there are better trainers then Gai but i have a list of trainers better than Cecil,you need to be versatile as a trainer and not need pacemakers.I can give you a list of French and Australian trainers who would rate above Cecil.Calling a statement comparing 2 trainers,one having trained more group 1 winners then the other in half the time laugable/deluded shows the air of supremacy a lot of you seem to have.How many group 1’s have English trainers prepared in Australia? How many have Australian trainers prepared in England!!! Put that in your pompous arrogant pipe and smoke it pal!!! As mentioned before in regards to Manighar Cumani 14 starts no wins 9 unplaced runs, Between de Royer-Dupre and Moody 17 starts 10wins 6 placings
Game set match!Seems a smart move by the Queen to me. That old boat needed a serious drop in class to begin figuring in the shake ups again.
…and there can’t be too many places on the planet that provide a more obvious drop in class than Oz!
Seems a smart move by the Queen to me. That old boat needed a serious drop in class to begin figuring in the shake ups again.
…and there can’t be too many places on the planet that provide a more obvious drop in class than Oz!
Surprise surprise another childish comment when presented with the facts
Seems a smart move by the Queen to me. That old boat needed a serious drop in class to begin figuring in the shake ups again.
…and there can’t be too many places on the planet that provide a more obvious drop in class than Oz!
Surprise surprise another childish comment when presented with the facts
Give over you big Jessie, it was only a joke.
Seems a smart move by the Queen to me. That old boat needed a serious drop in class to begin figuring in the shake ups again.
…and there can’t be too many places on the planet that provide a more obvious drop in class than Oz!
Surprise surprise another childish comment when presented with the facts
Give over you big Jessie, it was only a joke.
Don’t worry Hammy i have developed a thick hide when on here.
Don’t worry Hammy i have developed a thick hide when on here.
You look like you can give as good as you get to me cobber.
Joking aside I’m pleased to hear the Queen has placed a horse over there. Can only do good for the relationship between her two countries.
No offence intended old fruit.
Don’t worry Hammy i have developed a thick hide when on here.
You look like you can give as good as you get to me cobber.
Joking aside I’m pleased to hear the Queen has placed a horse over there. Can only do good for the relationship between her two countries.
No offence intended old fruit.
I think he is pretty good horse it will be interesting to see how he goes,Waterhouse trains in the ‘bone and muscle’ way and likes to race her horses on the speed,she won with Glencadam Gold at his first 4 starts here including the G1 Metropolitan,was fav for Caulfield cup but failed at his 5th start before running a decent race in the Melb Cup,and Carlton House is a lot better performed than others transferred here.I think he will win some big races.I think a lot of people just put it down to lesser class without understanding a lot of these horses thrive in the better weather and also a change in training aimed at injecting a bit of speed into them.Would be surprised if the Queen doesn’t earn some very big cheques with him.Having said that Hammy i am smart enough and unbiased enough to know he wouldn’t really have to improve to be a big chance in good races here on his form.Taking into account some others that came over that were very ordinarily performed and really thrived here,if Carlton House improves like that he will win most of the big races from a mile 12f.
Jollyp,
You talked up Gai, saying how many Group 1 races she’d won compared with Sir Henry Cecil. Coggy then rightly said your comparison of Waterhouse with Cecil, "one of the greatest trainers ever" was "laughable/deluded". He didNOT
dispute the numbers of Group 1 wins, just the significance of that stat… ie It was not a
fair comparison
and Sir Henry is a
better
trainer than Gai…
You called his statement "
stupid
" and "
one eyed
"; yet go on to say yourself "
I am not a particularly big fan of Gai’s"
.
So please tell us Jollyp, in your opinion is Gai as good a trainer as Sir Henry (and why?)!
There you go again! I am not a particular fan of Gai the person! See this is always the pompous argument there.Ah you people are classics head firmly stuck up your rear end.I think there are better trainers then Gai but i have a list of trainers better than Cecil,you need to be versatile as a trainer and not need pacemakers.I can give you a list of French and Australian trainers who would rate above Cecil.Calling a statement comparing 2 trainers,one having trained more group 1 winners then the other in half the time laugable/deluded shows the air of supremacy a lot of you seem to have.How many group 1’s have English trainers prepared in Australia? How many have Australian trainers prepared in England!!! Put that in your pompous arrogant pipe and smoke it pal!!! As mentioned before in regards to Manighar Cumani 14 starts no wins 9 unplaced runs, Between de Royer-Dupre and Moody 17 starts 10wins 6 placings
Game set match!Jollyp,
I don’t throw insults at you, so why do you do so to me? May be it is because you know you’re losing the arguement.We’re not supremacists you know! You Aussies like to think of youselves as being put upon by the Poms. About time you take responsibility.
There’s no disputing Australian sprinters are top class. Can and do go all over the World. Must have a unique training regime or food or something that works wonders; muscle definition quite remarkable.
Just a shame that with few exceptions you aren’t successful with any other distance group. How many Australian NON-sprinters have Australians prepared to win a Northern Hemisphere Group/Grade 1?
Once again, you go on and on (yawn) about the number of Group 1 winners Aussies have won, but Australian Group 1s are inferior quality, so they’re easier to win. Hence why you buy European second raters to win them.
Ofcourse nobody (well, very few), not even Europeans actually try to breed stayers. But some bred for middle-distances ultimately prove suited by another half mile. Fact is your horses that turn out to be stayers aren’t good enough to get in to the Melbourne Cup these days, let alone win it. Needing to buy better quality horses from Europe.
You ask How many group 1’s have English trainers prepared in Australia? Fact is it is not worth the risk of taking our best horses over there; as most of your best races are handicaps, not weight for age. And our best horses are often handicapped out of things by your handicapper. (My) Quest For Peace (5th but beaten less than 2 lengths) by French horse Dunaden in this year’s Caulfield Cup. Yet (My) Quest For Peace is only a Group 3 winner over here. Dunaden only been placed at Group 2 level in Europe; beaten by Sea Moon in the Hardwicke (Group 2). At the time of his 6th (in Britain’s premiere open aged WFA 1m4f Group 1) connections hoped Dunaden capable of winning the Arc; he wasn’t so they went pot hunting in Oz.
All The Good (2008) and Taufan’s Melody (1998) won Australia’s premiere middle distance Group 1, the Caulfield Cup (a handicap ); yet neither were Group horses in Britain, let alone Group 1.We don’t take anywhere near our best horses to Australia Jollyp, so to judge the record of our second (or third) raters as if they are somehow representitive of our best – is foolish in the extreme.
Why not take a look at what Dunaden did in Britain/Europe before thinking your horses are so good. There’s a reason why you only bring sprinters here!
Value Is EverythingCarlton House should be successful in Oz if temperament holds. Hope not raced "on the speed" otherwise he’ll pull his chance away.
Will probably be one of those not good enough to win a Group 1 over here to win them over there.
Of course Jollyp will say "improved" to win, strange how those "improvers" never come back here and win all our best races.
Value Is EverythingI hope Carlton House is successful in Australia. For me, he has never moved with the same zest in his races since the Derby. Perhaps the change of scene will be a big help for his temperament, if there are issues there. The easier opportunities will help too, I am sure.
GT calling you arrogant and pompous wasn’t ‘name calling’ mate it was just stating fact. You ask why we don’t bring over our middle distance horses from the past,simple those who would have measured up were too busy being readied for several 2 and 3 million dollar races over here.To travel over in June then be ready by the spring was almost impossible,and those going around for the big money in autumn had done their deeds and needed a spell.You see of the big races here there is more money in the 10 to 12f horses not sprinters like you may think.Northerly won 9 Group 1 races from about the year 2000 he retired in 2005 and though the prizemoney has improved quite a lot he still won 9.3 million.Whereas Sunline who won most of her races here won 13 Group 1 wins retired about 2001 and won 11.3 million $.In comparison Black Caviar has won 12 Group 1 wins in the present day yet has only amassed 6.7 million.Like Black Caviar they would only being going over for the novelty of it and money talks in racing.Don’t worry GT you will get your chance in future to see one of your horses transferred over here go back over there.Though if Atlantic Jewel ever is sound enough to go over there you will see a horse who is a world beater,she has been more impressive over here than Black Caviar and So You Think,she has done things that they couldn’t.When she blitzed them in the Wakeful Stks 10f a few good judges commented that she could have won any race on the program that day from 6f onwards and it was true,no other horse in history here could have done that.Though injury may prevent her racing much further she is the best we have had in my and a lot of other peoples opinion.Yes the Caulfield Cup is a Hcp,you can put all the little smart laughing icons in you want,you would love to have a race with the prizemoney
Oh and speaking of those handicaps you so love to deride,and state you don’t send your best over for how about Yeats in the Melbourne Cup,European champion stayer 2006,2007,2008,2009,your best ever stayer,in a lowly handicap I think he would rate as your best ever stayer and before you go on about the 59kg in weight Makybe Diva carried 58kg as a mare to win it!!! Oh i can probably throw in your 3 time Ascot Gold Cup winner Double Trigger.So my ‘friend’ do your homework before making statements or you just look foolish.Your foot must be getting painful by now GT calling you arrogant and pompous wasn’t ‘name calling’ mate it was just stating fact. You ask why we don’t bring over our middle distance horses from the past,simple those who would have measured up were too busy being readied for several 2 and 3 million dollar races over here.To travel over in June then be ready by the spring was almost impossible,and those going around for the big money in autumn had done their deeds and needed a spell.You see of the big races here there is more money in the 10 to 12f horses not sprinters like you may think.Northerly won 9 Group 1 races from about the year 2000 he retired in 2005 and though the prizemoney has improved quite a lot he still won 9.3 million.Whereas Sunline who won most of her races here won 13 Group 1 wins retired about 2001 and won 11.3 million $.In comparison Black Caviar has won 12 Group 1 wins in the present day yet has only amassed 6.7 million.Like Black Caviar they would only being going over for the novelty of it and money talks in racing.Don’t worry GT you will get your chance in future to see one of your horses transferred over here go back over there.Though if Atlantic Jewel ever is sound enough to go over there you will see a horse who is a world beater,she has been more impressive over here than Black Caviar and So You Think,she has done things that they couldn’t.When she blitzed them in the Wakeful Stks 10f a few good judges commented that she could have won any race on the program that day from 6f onwards and it was true,no other horse in history here could have done that.Though injury may prevent her racing much further she is the best we have had in my and a lot of other peoples opinion.Yes the Caulfield Cup is a Hcp,you can put all the little smart laughing icons in you want,you would love to have a race with the prizemoney
Oh and speaking of those handicaps you so love to deride,and state you don’t send your best over for how about Yeats in the Melbourne Cup,European champion stayer 2006,2007,2008,2009,your best ever stayer,in a lowly handicap I think he would rate as your best ever stayer and before you go on about the 59kg in weight Makybe Diva carried 58kg as a mare to win it!!! Oh i can probably throw in your 3 time Ascot Gold Cup winner Double Trigger.So my ‘friend’ do your homework before making statements or you just look foolish.Your foot must be getting painful by now Jolly P – please dont think I am being arrogant or pompous but may I introduce you to something you have clearly never heard of – THE PARAGRAPH!!!!
Seriously though it makes your posts look just like one long ramble if you don’t use them and I know you are an intelligent guy because you keep telling me.
Just a bit of friendly advice from the land that brought you William Shakespeare.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
GT calling you arrogant and pompous wasn’t ‘name calling’ mate it was just stating fact. You ask why we don’t bring over our middle distance horses from the past,simple those who would have measured up were too busy being readied for several 2 and 3 million dollar races over here.To travel over in June then be ready by the spring was almost impossible,and those going around for the big money in autumn had done their deeds and needed a spell.You see of the big races here there is more money in the 10 to 12f horses not sprinters like you may think.Northerly won 9 Group 1 races from about the year 2000 he retired in 2005 and though the prizemoney has improved quite a lot he still won 9.3 million.Whereas Sunline who won most of her races here won 13 Group 1 wins retired about 2001 and won 11.3 million $.In comparison Black Caviar has won 12 Group 1 wins in the present day yet has only amassed 6.7 million.Like Black Caviar they would only being going over for the novelty of it and money talks in racing.Don’t worry GT you will get your chance in future to see one of your horses transferred over here go back over there.Though if Atlantic Jewel ever is sound enough to go over there you will see a horse who is a world beater,she has been more impressive over here than Black Caviar and So You Think,she has done things that they couldn’t.When she blitzed them in the Wakeful Stks 10f a few good judges commented that she could have won any race on the program that day from 6f onwards and it was true,no other horse in history here could have done that.Though injury may prevent her racing much further she is the best we have had in my and a lot of other peoples opinion.Yes the Caulfield Cup is a Hcp,you can put all the little smart laughing icons in you want,you would love to have a race with the prizemoney
Oh and speaking of those handicaps you so love to deride,and state you don’t send your best over for how about Yeats in the Melbourne Cup,European champion stayer 2006,2007,2008,2009,your best ever stayer,in a lowly handicap I think he would rate as your best ever stayer and before you go on about the 59kg in weight Makybe Diva carried 58kg as a mare to win it!!! Oh i can probably throw in your 3 time Ascot Gold Cup winner Double Trigger.So my ‘friend’ do your homework before making statements or you just look foolish.Your foot must be getting painful by now Jolly P – please dont think I am being arrogant or pompous but may I introduce you to something you have clearly never heard of – THE PARAGRAPH!!!!
Seriously though it makes your posts look just like one long ramble if you don’t use them and I know you are an intelligent guy because you keep telling me.
Just a bit of friendly advice from the land that brought you William Shakespeare.
Firstly Jonibake it shows how desperate you are to come up with that one
UM i know what a paragraph is,however this is a racing forum,not an essay writing competition My posts may look like a ramble when those not wanting to know feel under a bit of pressure! Oh would that be the same William Shakespeare who there was much evidence was illiterate!!! Sorry old chap, a fair chance that it was just another Mary/Dick Francis con Ok Joni, just to make you feel better ok!It was beautiful sunny day with a warm wispish breeze as i Jonibake arose from sleep adorned in my beautiful Frankel pyjamas. etc etc etc
As the morning breeze picked up to a wildish wind i looked at my Frankel coffee cup, kissed it and said "it is going almost as fast as you old boy" etc etc etc
With morning now turning into afternoon i strode purposefully into Asda as i was on a mission which just prior i had failed to complete at Sainsburys. etc etc etc
My mission you ask? To buy the much sought after Frankel tea set! My eyes bulged with eager joy as at last i had spotted it!!! To my horror a woman with glee in her eye was eyeing my beautiful Frankel off as well
etc etc etcWe jostled a cup fell to the floor "oh my god" Tom Queally had lost his head
As i continued and baffled the woman with sheer wordsmithery she dejectly departed knowing she had been beaten by sheer brilliance of the mind.I didn’t like her,she reminded me of Black Caviar and almost embarrased herself as she ‘slowly’ walked out the door.etc etc etcNight had by now fallen a smile formed on my face as i sat on my throne in my Frankel slippers.Sipping my tea out of my beautiful new Frankel cup making sure i avoided cutting my lip on Tom Queally’s now headless torso.etc etc etc
Just before sleep had taken me for the night, shaping my pillow(now adorned in a beautiful Frankel pillowcase) i pondered ‘could life get any better than this’.etc etc etc
As eyes wearied with sleep winning i thought with my last conscious memory,yes but only if i moved to Australia.
The End.
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