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How about a lasix free Wise Dan having run 13 days before in a bog and travelled 10 hours on a plane?
I suspect connections of Wise Dan would not run him so soon after a hard race and might take the precaution of bringing him over early to acclimatise if he were to tackle a big European race. Nobody forced connections of Excelebration to run him on bad ground on Champions Day and it is not as if the gap between races was not known well in advance. Wise Dan was a man against a boy on the day, at the track and under the conditions. I think he deserves a bit more credit than he is getting.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
You are right, tbh I was surprised when AOB announced Excelebration was going to the BC. I thought he should retire on the high of his facile Champions Day win.
As for the Americans saying Wise Dan would have beaten Frankel, what a joke. Did our boy not beat Excelebration by 11 lengths on the bridle? Did not see Wise Dan doing anything of that sort!
Have they banned Bute though?
Are they allowed any other controversial medications?Thanks for the insight Miss W, I guess being from the UK we only hear about the celebrities like the wonderful Zenyatta.
I think the Breeders Cup ban is for all "raceday medication" which would include all of those.
Incidentally, the USTA (harness racing) is trying to phase out Lasix/raceday meds entirely. I suspect the NSA and other smaller racing jurisdictions will do the same in the coming years. Hopefully the fact that the world didn’t explode because 2yos didn’t race on Lasix in the Breeders Cup will ease some trainers’ fears.
But Miss W, if the ban only covers raceday medication does that mean they can dope the horse up the hilt in the preceding weeks and then ease off the last few days? I am not certain of the rules in the UK but I think they must have at least a 9 day withdrawal period for controlled medications and any found in the blood is an infraction.
What are the testing parameters for the US horses? Do they allow lower levels of the controlled medications but not past a certain level?
Thanks for any clarification.
See page 85: https://members.breederscup.com/doc%20r … er/HIG.pdf
You are right, tbh I was surprised when AOB announced Excelebration was going to the BC. I thought he should retire on the high of his facile Champions Day win.
As for the Americans saying Wise Dan would have beaten Frankel, what a joke. Did our boy not beat Excelebration by 11 lengths on the bridle? Did not see Wise Dan doing anything of that sort!
Alas, we’ll never know if Wise Dan would have beaten Frankel, or vice versa. There will be that unanswered question, as the
gelding
Wise Dan continues to run and rack up achievements over the coming years. And yes, Mort Fink is the sort of owner who would bring his horse over to Ascot.
And what was ever stopping Wise Dan from coming over to the UK to take on Frankel? Whatever track and going, Frankel would’ve left Wise Dan for dead.
And what was ever stopping Wise Dan from coming over to the UK to take on Frankel? Whatever track and going, Frankel would’ve left Wise Dan for dead.
Just because a European contender CHOOSES to go Stateside to compete, it does not mean there is any onus on a USA runner to reciprocate. It is also a totally moot point now.
If you look at Frankel’s last run and the way he came out of the stalls, it may well have been a suicidal error on hard ground at Santa Anita. Remember Frankel was running with more restraint this season than with the fizz he showed when winning the 2000 Guineas, and we saw plenty of horses at this meeting who couldn’t make up the expected ground. Dancing Brave arrived in his year with the same air of invincibility and proved that some races are a reach too far. Henry Cecil made the right move avoiding the Arc and I believe he made the right decision not to send Frankel to a greyhound track where any career defeat would most probably happen.
O’Brien said the day before that his horse oozed class and speed, now it is all about how his previous race took the juice out of him. Just as it was with Camelot in the Arc, it looked a badly planned attempt and you have to respect a winner that was put into the race primed for the occasion.
I believe that we can either learn from the experience for future years, or just keep blaming bad luck and insisting that we have the best horses.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Miss W, that is an impressive array of potentially performance enhancing medications that are permissible within the days leading up to a race! I think it appalling that Bute is still permitted as this is a very effective anti inflammatory that can mask lameness. For other horse sports the withdrawal for Bute is 3 weeks I think.
Am I right in thinking US horses used to be able to run on anabolic steroids? I always thought Curlin looked pumped up on something, his physique was way beyond a normal TB racehorse. That bleeding medication has been undermining the integrity of the modern TB. No wonder the US trainers never want to come over here and give up their juice. Breeders Cup are setting a great example by banning it next year.
Also, provided he stays sound, Animal Kingdom is being pointed towards Dubai and then Ascot next year.
Miss W, that is an impressive array of potentially performance enhancing medications that are permissible within the days leading up to a race! I think it appalling that Bute is still permitted as this is a very effective anti inflammatory that can mask lameness. For other horse sports the withdrawal for Bute is 3 weeks I think.
Am I right in thinking US horses used to be able to run on anabolic steroids? I always thought Curlin looked pumped up on something, his physique was way beyond a normal TB racehorse. That bleeding medication has been undermining the integrity of the modern TB. No wonder the US trainers never want to come over here and give up their juice. Breeders Cup are setting a great example by banning it next year.
In the state of California Bute is
not
permitted!
Anabolic steroids weren’t necessary legal, but the track vets looked the other way and did not usually test for them.
American horses do run without their juice in the Dubai carnival and Japan Cup. Money talks. Get a few more million dollar races in England and they’ll come, Lasix or no Lasix.
Basing Wise Dan’s "superiority" over Excelebration on the Breeders Cup is stupid. Both are better than average Group/Grade 1 winners. Wise Dan is the best horse in America, turf or dirt. Yet is he really only 2 lengths superior to Obviously or 3 lengths superior to Mr. Commons? I don’t think so, he’s a lot better than that. Despite Wise Dan winning, neither he or Excelebration "ran to form".
People should also not judge Excelebration on the 11 lengths he finished behind Frankel in the Queen Anne; failed to give his running that day. He’s only 5 lengths inferior and Wise Dan might be 4 3/4 lengths inferior to The Freak.
Value Is EverythingMoney talks. Get a few more million dollar races in England and they’ll come, Lasix or no Lasix.
American horses could gain a hell of a lot more in the breeding shed if they were to come to Europe and win one of our big races. They don’t, because there are easier pickings in the USA.
Over 20 years since Fourstars Allstar won the Irish 2000 Guineas before finishing third to Lure in the Breeders Cup Mile?
Value Is Everything"Bringing the best overseas racing to you" is the strap-line of the HKJC’s simulcast programme.
Big race-days from GB, France, Dubai, Australia, Japan, even Singapore – no problem.
Yet no sighting of the Breeders Cup.
Even though the HKJC Executive Director of Racing is Bill Nader, formerly of the New York Racing Association.
Maybe the timing is too much.
Or maybe the BC has a problem.
Wise Dan won it fair and square. It’s not his connections who map out other horses paths. Racing is a team game, and if you make the wrong move it reflects badly on your horse. O’Brien always rattles on about how his horses have so much natural speed, so where better to show this than on a flat track on fast ground with a fair surface that horses can bounce off ? The distance between Excelebration and Moonlight Cloud also suggests that they ran something like their race. Excelebration was made to look better than what he is by the Gosden Filly and the journey horse at Ascot. Some people are in a que to give him a 130+ rating to make Frankel look better. The fact is they all raced under the same conditions, and Wise Dan beat him fair and square. I too underestimated the American horse, but i’m glad he won. People on here make up too many excuses. These horses weren’t third rate runners either.
The idea that Excelebration did not turn up based on proximity of locals is based on what exactly? Ratings maybe? Whose exactly?
….
Get a few more million dollar races in England and they’ll come, Lasix or no Lasix.…where there’s a will, there’s a Ward and it doesn’t need a million dollars, it seems.
Jealous Again in the Queen Mary 3 years ago, – one of the most impressive winners of that race – and his Aegean also ran in the Albany the same year, both had form at Keeneland polytrack…. last year he sent over Gypsy Queen for the Queen Mary – unplaced but again form at Keeneland…
in 2010 Kenneth McPeek sent over Tiz My Time who was 3rd in the Albany Stakes, she also had form on the polytrack….
I think Ward has also had 2 yo winners at Chantilly in France during the early part of the season, just before Ascot…
I remember, going way back, some US connections were more internationally orientated than they are now, Carry Back, the Kentucky Derby/Preakness winner came over for the 1962 Arc… and there was another in 1965…. so nothing new in travel and it must have been quite difficult in those times…
…I thought Excelebration ran his race on Saturday, suited by the course and had every chance. That’s as good as he is in my opinion…
i think the europeans not only underestimated the opposition, but the track as well.
you have to be right up there round that final bend, thats why a lot of jockeys got caught out.
if the fugue and sky lanterns races were ran again, i would still back the two, but im not so sure about excelebration. don’t think the ground was to blame for excelebration, as they knew in advance what it was going to be like.
like they say, wise dan is a beast of a horse, and is america’s frankel at the moment. just because excelebration was second to frankel on numerous occasions, doesn’t make him the second best miler in the world.
i personally wouldn’t be surprised if they brought wise dan over to ascot next year.
OMG
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Do you lot look at a form book?
The old cliche "horses are not machines" comes to mind.Excelebration has never run on so firm a surface; good-firm yes, firm or very firm NO. Few horses as good as he is on truly soft ground – are as good on very firm – let alone having to go around a sharp bend on the surface, after a long season. You can not blame connections for having a go because they weren’t to know Excelebration would definitely not act on very firm and they weren’t to know it would turn out that firm anyway. Good-firm would’ve been fine.
Since Newmarket, connections of Moonlight Cloud have actively run away from anything remotely on the firm side of good; let alone very firm. Only run on good-firm when disappointing in the 1000 Guineas. I was surprised connections went for this race, may be with his record Freddie Head could be excused for thinking any horse he sent there had a good chance.
You’ve only got to look at form on the Racing Post website to realise there are valid excuses for both Excelebration and Moonlight Cloud.
And if they "ran to form" on Saturday, then Mr. Commons and Obviously must have improved.
Mr. Commons was yet to win a Grade 1 in 5 attempts prior to Saturday and also beaten in his last 3 Grade 2’s. With all those tries Mr. Commons should be exposed by now; yet we’re supposed to believe he’s only a 1 length worse horse than Excelebration!
Mr. Commons has form with Obviously that seems to have been fairly well replocated on Saturday. So did both Obviously and Mr. Commons improve a lot and to roughly the same extent? No!
Much easier to believe Wise Dan did not need to be at his best to win. Animal Kingdom may well have gone close with a clear run, so it’s easier to believe the best American horse did not need to run to form to win and the two Europeans (for valid reasons) ran below expectations. Take those three horses (WD, E and MC) out and everything else makes perfect sense.
Wise Dan may well be better than Excelebration; as I said, Wise Dan is the best American horse turf or dirt and a real Top Class Grade 1 horse; one of the best horses in the World. In relation to the other American horses in the race he’s better than Saturday’s distances suggests. But to compare Wise Dan with Frankel is preposterous.
Value Is Everything
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