- This topic has 160 replies, 71 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 6 months ago by
.
- Posts
1. Comes at the fag end of the European season so Euro horses not specificsally targeted at it.
2. Advent of the QIPCO Champions Day as an alternative.
3. Drugfest. Depressing to hear Euro trainers state "if you can’t beat them on drugs join them" though drug free juvenile races are step in right direction.
4. Diluted product
5. "World Championships " my a**e. About as much world champs as baseball or NFL
6. Track is like a speedway circuit- like part Fakenham, part Chester.
I was sad to hear Excelebration did not manage to win, and I know it sounds like making excuses, but he had a number of factors against him:
His run only 13 days ago which at the best of times would affect any horse but it was really heavy going and this takes far more out the horse.
He then had to make the long plane journey over to the USA.I think he was just exhausted after a long season and that hard race at Ascot. A sad sort of end for a horse I have become rather attached to. Lesson learned for AOB: nigh impossible to win at Champions day then the Breeders Cup.
I think he was just exhausted after a long season and that hard race at Ascot. A sad sort of end for a horse I have become rather attached to. Lesson learned for AOB: nigh impossible to win at Champions day then the Breeders Cup.
In most years AOTF, I believe there will be a week more (three) between Champions Day and Breeders Cup.
Value Is EverythingI forgot to say that another factor is that he has been racing on soft going all season, so to suddenly change to fast and run much quicker will be a complete change of racing style for a horse. in contrast Wise Dan’s last run was on firm ground.
I wonder if the European horses in the non-juvenile races were on lasix etc? I find it appalling that they are permitted to use lasix in the USA and they used to be able to use Bute (i think that has now been phased out). Kind of like saying to Lance Armstrong, okay EPO’s fine in the USA! Sends a terrible message to society/spectators as well as degrading the TB breed.
Fort Larned won.
It must have been one of the poorest quality Classic’s in recent years. No stars like Curlin, Invasor, Zenyatta, Ghostzapper, Tiznow to get excited about.
I’ll Have Another’s retirement was a big blow to US 3yo racing.
All tracks have bias. You can’t eliminate that, even in our "boring identical dog-racing ovals".
-Wise Dan is a better horse than Excelebration, and ought to be Horse of the Year. I feel like Frankel will always have a bit of a blotch on his resume because he never traveled and never faced the 2nd best turf miler in the world (he liked firm ground anyway, didn’t he?).
-SNA lacks the speed of PoE and Little Mike. Simple as that. Both Mike and PoE are 3-time G1 winners this year, I expected them to be 1st and 2nd in some order.
-Zagora was generally considered the best turf mare in the country before the F&M turf, and her ability to handle traffic is part of that.
-Most of the European contingent wasn’t that strong. Nowadays a third-rate Euro can’t just swoop in and automatically win over America’s best turf horses.
I forgot to say that another factor is that he has been racing on soft going all season, so to suddenly change to fast and run much quicker will be a complete change of racing style for a horse. in contrast Wise Dan’s last run was on firm ground.
I wonder if the European horses in the non-juvenile races were on lasix etc? I find it appalling that they are permitted to use lasix in the USA and they used to be able to use Bute (i think that has now been phased out). Kind of like saying to Lance Armstrong, okay EPO’s fine in the USA! Sends a terrible message to society/spectators as well as degrading the TB breed.
Fort Larned won.
It must have been one of the poorest quality Classic’s in recent years. No stars like Curlin, Invasor, Zenyatta, Ghostzapper, Tiznow to get excited about.
I’ll Have Another’s retirement was a big blow to US 3yo racing.
In 2013 non of the horses in the Breeders Cupwill be on Lasix.
This Classic wasn’t bad at all. Game On Dude had every chance in the world to make his move down the stretch, but he just didn’t fire. Fort Larned, a darn good horse in his own right, took advantage. Fort Larned won the G1 Whitney in much the same fashion over Flat Out and Ron the Greek, won the G3 Skip Away and Cornhusker (the latter over Successful Dan and Awesome Gem), 2nd in the G2 Alysheba, 3rd in the G1 Jockey Club Gold Cup. Not an undeserving winner at all. His 2nd dam is the great Bayakoa, and clearly some of that talent has been passed down.
Have they banned Bute though?
Are they allowed any other controversial medications?Thanks for the insight Miss W, I guess being from the UK we only hear about the celebrities like the wonderful Zenyatta.
Have they banned Bute though?
Are they allowed any other controversial medications?Thanks for the insight Miss W, I guess being from the UK we only hear about the celebrities like the wonderful Zenyatta.
I think the Breeders Cup ban is for all "raceday medication" which would include all of those.
Incidentally, the USTA (harness racing) is trying to phase out Lasix/raceday meds entirely. I suspect the NSA and other smaller racing jurisdictions will do the same in the coming years. Hopefully the fact that the world didn’t explode because 2yos didn’t race on Lasix in the Breeders Cup will ease some trainers’ fears.
When you go into any event with a half-assed approach, it is hardly surprising when you come up empty. Bringing horses who have not been specifically chosen for their suitability at the track and on the going is not the way to boost your chances of success. When you then have their jockeys ride them as if they were on a normal track back home, you are giving the home team a huge advantage. Forget the term "unlucky", it is not a question of luck. It is amazing that some people can watch race after race where the horse was not put in the best position to win and then claim it was bad luck. If you are not willing to go out there and ride aggressively to compete with the tactics required to win the race, you might as well stay at home. After the first televised preview race on ATR (5.05 Race) the US commentators stated that, based on the first two sectional timings, the winner should have been coming back to the field in the latter part of the race, instead, she scooted away to win easily. Surely a penny should have dropped and European jockeys could have worked out that coming from off the pace was a waste of time. I watched John Gosden’s Snow King in the second race, he was a once raced horse who missed the break, looked all at sea on the track and going and was never a factor despite being second favourite. He looked totally the wrong type of animal for the race and it was a waste of time running him. Later on Dundonnell, Nicholas Abbey and Excelebration had a lot to do given the track and ground. The latter two probably had too much on given hard races on totally different ground on their previous starts and it has to be asked why they didn’t set their sights on the Breeders Cup specifically in order that they might have some chance of being at their best on the day. Perhaps there is an air of superiority regarding European racing and a belief that second or third string animals can get by, even on tracks and ground that is alien to them, simply because OUR racing is the best. All in all a pretty feeble effort and I am awarding a C- for this year’s European report card:-
"Must plan ahead and try harder next year"
Professor WagstaffThanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Have they banned Bute though?
Are they allowed any other controversial medications?Thanks for the insight Miss W, I guess being from the UK we only hear about the celebrities like the wonderful Zenyatta.
I think the Breeders Cup ban is for all "raceday medication" which would include all of those.
Incidentally, the USTA (harness racing) is trying to phase out Lasix/raceday meds entirely. I suspect the NSA and other smaller racing jurisdictions will do the same in the coming years. Hopefully the fact that the world didn’t explode because 2yos didn’t race on Lasix in the Breeders Cup will ease some trainers’ fears.
But Miss W, if the ban only covers raceday medication does that mean they can dope the horse up the hilt in the preceding weeks and then ease off the last few days? I am not certain of the rules in the UK but I think they must have at least a 9 day withdrawal period for controlled medications and any found in the blood is an infraction.
What are the testing parameters for the US horses? Do they allow lower levels of the controlled medications but not past a certain level?
Thanks for any clarification.
-Wise Dan is a better horse than Excelebration, and ought to be Horse of the Year. I feel like Frankel will always have a bit of a blotch on his resume because he never traveled and never faced the 2nd best turf miler in the world (he liked firm ground anyway, didn’t he?).
-SNA lacks the speed of PoE and Little Mike. Simple as that. Both Mike and PoE are 3-time G1 winners this year, I expected them to be 1st and 2nd in some order.
-Most of the European contingent wasn’t that strong
Santa Anita suits speedier types and the tight turns were always going to disadvantage most of the European horses. To say categorically that Wise Dan is a better horse than Excelebration is stretching it just a bit. I would say Wise Dan is better suited to his home surroundings and certainly handled the fast, tight turning track much better than Excelebration ever could. I reckon that over European course conditions, a lasix free Wise Dan would have given Excelebration a good lead, before being left behind. As for Frankel: I expect even the exalted one may have been inconvenienced by Santa Anita’s speedway, but again, all thing’s being equal, Wise Dan, good horse that he is, would not have troubled Frankel in the slightest.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Why did we (Europe) put up such a limp challenge for this year’s Breeders Cup?
Not a single horse you’d describe as anywthing like a champion was sent. No Frankel, no Cirrus Des Aigles, no Nathaniel, no Danedream, no Camelot, no Dawn Approach and so the list could go on. No first division and precious few second division performers either.
Is California too far? We have done well there in the past.
Or are trainers and owners just giving up for a whole variety of reasons on the annual ‘World Championships’?
It doesn’t seem to be a natural target for any of our top performers.
Europe did so "bad" for many reasons.
1. Bad luck, Sky Lantern and Dundonnell could’ve gone close with a better run. In all probability The Fugue would’ve won with a clear run.
2. The ground wasn’t just firm, imo it was very firm bordering on hard; hence race times. Very firm ground means horses don’t come back to the field, there’s even less time in the home straight and what happens on the turn/luck in running matters more. Criticism of European jockeys is overdone, a lot of American runners also met trouble without criticism. Point Of Entry, Animal Kingdom etc. Saving ground on the inner is a good thing around a tight track, but you’ve got to have luck in the run.
Suited those three mentioned in (1), but not that many top European horses act on very firm. Had the meeting been run in Europe not many horses would’ve turned up on that ground. Certainly not Cirrus Des Aigles and Nathaniel.3. British and Irish horses haven’t done that well in the past anyway. French do better, probably because of their warmer climate. Going from cold to hot climate is asking a lot. Our (GB) horses are often "over the top" by November.
4. Why would Europeans want to take part in Dirt races? It gives a massive advantage to Americans so will never be a "World Championship". American trainers knew Europeans could win on polytrack so "peruaded" tracks to go back to Dirt.
5. Why would Europeans want to take part in races on turf around such a tight track that makes luck in running so important… when there are other races to go for where "luck" is not such a big aspect? We’d be laughed at if running a "World Championships" around Chester? Unlucky stories in virtually every turf race. British Champions Day is a far better alternative.
I was going to reply to the OP but your answer was both eloquent and informative..so no need!
How about a lasix free Wise Dan having run 13 days before in a bog and travelled 10 hours on a plane?
Big European races are always going to look stronger on a horses stallion C.V. Champion Stakes and Arc are going to look better because a horse needs more attributes to win those sort of races due to the tracks and varying conditions. The bigger operations are always going to put big Euro events first. It’s hard to prime a horse for a number of bigger races. If you take Danedream from one of Cormacks examples, she got the KG and wanted the Arc. To get her to go to USA after that is probably a step too far, so there’s no need for them to send her. Some of the Asian races offer a better opportunity in terms of time schedule, and even at that many just prefer to put the horse away. I’m fine with what the Euros send over. There’s enough there to add to the occasion. I do like the BC meeting.
I just went onto a US racing forum to get a flavour of their opinions on the European challenge. A general conclusion seems to be that Frankel wasn’t asked to contest the Breeders’ Cup Mile as his connections were afraid of Wise Dan and did not wish to suffer an embarrassing defeat.
They use Wise Dan’s quite clear win over Excelebration as justification of this. What do you make of this?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.