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For the record, here’s what Mort Fink had to say about Frankel vs. Wise Dan:
“Don’t worry about it; I’m not going to,” Fink said with a smile. “What Frankel has accomplished, nobody could say anything about him. My God, it’s a miracle what he’s done.
“I’m not going to think about how he would do against Frankel. He’s the best horse in the world. He’s retired. We’re never going to get a chance to run, so no point of thinking about that.”
Charles Lopresti:
People think I brag about the horse but he is phenomenal. He amazes me every time he runs. I was worried about the closing kick of the European horses. You had to think Excelebration was going to be a monster running behind a horse like Frankel.
"Let me add, anytime a horse — no matter where he runs — goes undefeated, that’s a really good horse."
‘I don’t know if I could beat him – it would be neat to see but it is never going to happen.’
‘Wise Dan is a gelding so I’m not under the gun with him because he has one future and that is to race. When you are dealing with future stallions like Frankel, why go on a limb and get him beat.’
No Frankel, no Cirrus Des Aigles, no Nathaniel, no Danedream, no Camelot, no Dawn Approach
Just to address the potential contenders you listed here:-
Frankel:- We always knew it was highly unlikely to happen. If he had been there would class definitely have been enough to see him through? A start similar to the Champion Stakes would have handed a big advantage to those on the early pace. Probably best for all concerned that it never happened.
Cirrus Des Aigles:- Surely would have been all at sea on the track and ground given that all his best runs were in the mud.
Nathaniel:- Would need cut in the ground and surely lacks the tactical pace to have been a contender. A one-dimensional horse who didn’t progress any from last year in my book.
Camelot:- Would have been a fish out of water. Came from off the pace to win the worst Guineas and Derby in recent memory, tried to do the same in the Leger. No chance in my opinion.
Dawn Approach:- Probably had too long a season but even if he had been prepped for the race his tendency to hit a flat spot and then stay on to win his races would have meant it unlikely that he would be picking off the front runners on the track and ground.
Danedream:- Based on her track record time when winning the Arc you would think she might have a chance on the ground but her Japan Cup effort was less than inspiring last year and nothing that finished behind her in the King George VI QE2 has won a race since, including Nathaniel, St Nicholas Abbey and Sea Moon.
In summary I don’t think it would have been much different if our "A Team" had taken the field this past weekend.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Seems to me that the European horses for the most part were out of their league.Over the years if you look at those who have won at the BC they were the top drawer european horses not the second string ones who went over this year.What did either St.N or Excel do to make anyone think they were world champions this year? Was Dund.amongst the first ten two year olds in Europe? I don’t think so.Why expect him to win a BC?Perhaps European horses should have to qualify rather than getting a free run.For example allow the first three in the Dewhurst and the Racing Post to run and all three races would be enhanced.
On the positive side, Henrythenavigator showed through George Vancouver that he could be a sire to provide success for Europe in America. Henrythenavigator himself was a miler with a deadly turn-of-foot who thrived as the conditions got faster. He also ran second in the BC Classic to Raven’s Pass.
Having a sire who can produce fast-ground specialists adept at running on speed tracks bodes well for the future.
The conclusions you draw derive from the data you use. For instance Thorograph had Obviously with a -1 top and Excelebration -0.5 top (lower # is best). Presumably Sleepy Hollow had other views entirely. Just saying, I follow neither.
But to bat about vanilla qualitative conclusions derived from numbers is pointless absent of addressing the numbers themselves. Otherwise it’s just spinning a yarn around which team’s numbers you support.
Seems to me that the European horses for the most part were out of their league. Over the years if you look at those who have won at the BC they were the top drawer european horses not the second string ones who went over this year.
What did either St.N or Excel do to make anyone think they were world champions this year?
Was Dund.amongst the first ten two year olds in Europe?
I don’t think so. Why expect him to win a BC? Perhaps European horses should have to qualify rather than getting a free run.For example allow the first three in the Dewhurst and the Racing Post to run and all three races would be enhanced.
That must be one of the silliest comments I’ve seen on this forum Andyod, even for you!
You ask
"What did St.N or Excel do to make anyone think they were World Champions"?
Well neither are "World Champions", but you don’t need to be a "World Champion" to win a Breeders Cup race. St Nich himself proved that last year by running away with the "Turf", and before him Dangerous Midge and Red Rocks were nowhere near the best over here. Even Conduit won two BC Turfs and wasn’t a "World Champion".
Without Frankel, Excelebration would’ve won a whole host of top class Group 1 races. He didn’t run to form around a very sharp track on very firm ground, no big deal.You also ask
"Was Dundonnell amongst the first ten two year olds in Europe"?
Well no, not yet. But he had better form than Donativum, Pounced and Wrote; all previous winners of the BC Turf Juvenile. Dundonnell didn’t handle the first bend then rushed up on the back stretch when Doyle seemed to panic. As a three year old Roger Charlton’s horse certainly has more physical scope to do better than previous European winners of this race, if the experience hasn’t set him back. I’ve backed him for the 2000 Guineas.
http://www.drf.com/news/breeders-cup-20 … eo-replays
You weren’t serious Andyod were you?
"Qualify" for the Breeders Cup. Value Is EverythingMiss W, that is an impressive array of potentially performance enhancing medications that are permissible within the days leading up to a race! I think it appalling that Bute is still permitted as this is a very effective anti inflammatory that can mask lameness. For other horse sports the withdrawal for Bute is 3 weeks I think.
Am I right in thinking US horses used to be able to run on anabolic steroids? I always thought Curlin looked pumped up on something, his physique was way beyond a normal TB racehorse. That bleeding medication has been undermining the integrity of the modern TB. No wonder the US trainers never want to come over here and give up their juice. Breeders Cup are setting a great example by banning it next year.
In the state of California Bute is
not
permitted!
Anabolic steroids weren’t necessary legal, but the track vets looked the other way and did not usually test for them.
American horses do run without their juice in the Dubai carnival and Japan Cup. Money talks. Get a few more million dollar races in England and they’ll come, Lasix or no Lasix.
Why does it say in Rule 1843.5: (g) One of the following non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications may be administered until 24 hours before the post time of the race in which the horse is entered under Rule 1844 of this division: (1)
Phenylbutazone
;
And Rule 1844: Not more than one approved non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug substance (NSAID) may be administered to a horse that is entered to race and shall be only one of the following authorized drug substances: (1)
phenylbutazone
in a dosage amount that the test sample shall contain not more than 2 micrograms of the drug substance per milliliter of blood plasma or serum.
Did these rules apply to the Breeders Cup as an exception to general California State racing rules?
My mate Sam puts it perfectly sa usual:
DON’T believe the billing. The Breeders’ Cup will never be a world championships.
A highly coveted end-of-season bonus, sure. An entertaining clash between Europe and America, of course. But not a world championships.
There’s not a problem with its geography or its position in the calendar, it isn’t a drug thing and, with the hugely generous prize-money, it has no issues attracting plenty of top quality shippers from overseas.
On most measures the Breeders’ Cup fully deserves its place as one of the most important events in world racing, but there is a fundamental flaw in the meeting which can’t easily be rectified.
The problem is that turf is the most popular racing surface on the planet but the Breeders’ Cup has never and will never create a world turf champion.
Racing round a seven-furlong oval is simply not conducive to finding a champion – it’s not even conducive to finding the best horse in the race.
With turf being a secondary surface in America, it is always consigned to the infield. The bends are tighter, the finishes more compressed and hard luck stories much more common than in Europe.
Take the Filly and Mare Turf on Friday. The Fugue was full of running but had to be checked a couple of times, got no run and eventually finishing third, while fellow European Ridasiyna kept on well from the rear to take fourth.
In a straight test of ability the positions in this race would change. If Ridasiyna had more time to wind up, or got a closer sit, or if they went a stronger pace, she would have finished closer, as, obviously, would The Fugue if she had a clear run.
Exciting finishes, yes. Competitive racing, yes. Bringing the Europeans and Americans closer together, yes. But test of a champion, no. Less than four-lengths covered the first seven home in the Filly and Mare Turf, so even if Zagora does happen to be the best filly or mare turf performer on the planet, she was not able to prove it in Friday’s sprint-off.
This is not to denigrate what Zagora achieved. The attributes required for success around a short circuit are valuable assets in a racehorse – she has tactical speed and she is fast. But was she the horse with the most ability in the field? Inconclusive. Was Little Mike the most able horse in the Turf? Inconclusive.
The Days of Thunder ‘rubbing is racing’ defence could be called here. Luck is racing, riding is racing, the draw is racing, tactics are racing and running round a tight oval is still racing. All true.
But championship events are different. They are supposed to crown champions and the focus should be on testing ability rather than luck. Races not proclaimed ‘championships’ can be as quirky as they like. The luck element and differences of ground and camber are all essential parts of the great game which help show how versatile a horse is.
But while the Breeders’ Cup turf races are run around sharp ovals they can only highlight the adaptability of a champion who has already proved his number one requisite (class) elsewhere. They can, therefore, never crown fresh champions, only confirm them.
On Saturday, the most important race of the two-day Breeders’ Cup meeting was run round the seven furlong oval. Excelebration versus Wise Dan. Europe versus America. Two top horses round two tight turns.
It would have been nice to see which would come out best in a straight ability test but even around a tight track there was no question the winner was the best horse on the day.
Wise Dan held a handier sit than the Irish colt, but he pulled clear in the straight for a convincing win.He has looked exceptional all year and this was another textbook performance, with a telling burst of speed taking him to the front for a comfortable success.
The proximity of Mr Commons and Obviously mean the standard of form is only as high as he has been running all year (RPR 127+). It is actually 1lb lower than his Woodbine Mile success, where he made good use of the longer run-in.
Wise Dan may be capable of rating higher if given the opportunity – ratings are, after all, a product of ability and opportunity. But if connections stick to the turf he may never get that opportunity on short tracks at home.
There are plenty of other options for him. He has the class to make an extremely rare crossover the other way; to take his scintillating sectionals to Europe and win on straight tracks. With Frankel and Excelebration out of the way that may be an option next term.
He could also switch back to dirt, or tackle the Tapeta at Meydan. There are any number of potential races for the most versatile horse in world racing.
Another horse who could be interesting in Europe is Animal Kingdom (123+), who had to wait for a run before keeping on late to take second in the Mile. He should stay further and is one to keep an eye on wherever he goes.
In the Breeders’ Cup Turf it was an American, not a European, who lost out due to the short Santa Anita straight.
Little Mike (121) was first past the post in the race normally dominated by Europeans, but favourite Point of Entry (120+) looked like the best horse in the race. The runner-up stayed on fast and late to close the winning gap down to half a length. St Nicholas Abbey was best of the raiders, staying on to take third.
The Breeders’ Cup Classic provided the biggest figure of the meeting. Fort Larned posted an RPR of 128 for his half-length victory over Mucho Macho Man (127).
It was not the strongest Classic field ever, but the one-two are progressive and posted career best performances to finish six-and-a-half lengths clear of Flat Out.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Miss W, that is an impressive array of potentially performance enhancing medications that are permissible within the days leading up to a race! I think it appalling that Bute is still permitted as this is a very effective anti inflammatory that can mask lameness. For other horse sports the withdrawal for Bute is 3 weeks I think.
Am I right in thinking US horses used to be able to run on anabolic steroids? I always thought Curlin looked pumped up on something, his physique was way beyond a normal TB racehorse. That bleeding medication has been undermining the integrity of the modern TB. No wonder the US trainers never want to come over here and give up their juice. Breeders Cup are setting a great example by banning it next year.
In the state of California Bute is
not
permitted!
Anabolic steroids weren’t necessary legal, but the track vets looked the other way and did not usually test for them.
American horses do run without their juice in the Dubai carnival and Japan Cup. Money talks. Get a few more million dollar races in England and they’ll come, Lasix or no Lasix.
Why does it say in Rule 1843.5: (g) One of the following non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications may be administered until 24 hours before the post time of the race in which the horse is entered under Rule 1844 of this division: (1)
Phenylbutazone
;
And Rule 1844: Not more than one approved non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug substance (NSAID) may be administered to a horse that is entered to race and shall be only one of the following authorized drug substances: (1)
phenylbutazone
in a dosage amount that the test sample shall contain not more than 2 micrograms of the drug substance per milliliter of blood plasma or serum.
Did these rules apply to the Breeders Cup as an exception to general California State racing rules?
Phenylbutazone is permitted, but
clenbuterol
is not. The former is an NSAID, the latter is a bronchodilator. Both are commonly referred to as Bute.
Other than being mildly interesting, has the Breeders Cup developed into an almost complete irrelevance for UK racing fans and punters?
Other than being mildly interesting, has the Breeders Cup developed into an almost complete irrelevance for UK racing fans and punters?
Well that depends, what do you mean by relevance? Do you mean interest, or impact on breeding?
SHL
I mean interest really. I think people were more interested in the Charlie Hall than the BC Classic.
I’ve struggled to muster anything more than a vague passing interest since it stopped being shown on proper telly. I certainly wouldn’t waste any money betting on it
I mean interest really. I think people were more interested in the Charlie Hall than the BC Classic.
Well from a European perspective, it was very hard to get excited by this years lot. Looked a weak team from the get go but generally its been pretty good over recent years. From our perspective it needed a Treve, Kingman or an Austrailia to get us interested. Its a bit ironic really because European trainers have worked it out much better than in the years when Dancing Brave, Zilzal et al used to go over and run no race.
SHL
I mean interest really. I think people were more interested in the Charlie Hall than the BC Classic.
Which people were more interested in what?
The Charlie Hall piqued my interest more so than the BC Classic (which was a fantastic race in fairness) because I’m a fan of jumps racing, preferably UK/IRE/FRA staged. At this time of year, jumps enthusiasts tend to emerge from hibernation, usurping the flat enthusiasts’ promenance in the online chattersphere.
The Breeders’ Cup is a pretty tough gig for serious punters when you think about all the uncertainties.
How will the Euros react to LASIX?
Will my horse be flagging at the end of a long season?
How does the US and Euro form really compare?
What is the track doing – is there a pace bias?
Will my horse get trapped on the rail around this American dog track?
Will my horse go on that rock hard ground?Unless you’re just a recreational punter having a gamble or a pro who can pour lots of time into it, it’s just too hard to bet with confidence.
The jumps cards were probably more appealing since we know most of the horses very well and it’s easier to get a grip on the form. Down Royal, Ascot and Wetherby are all pretty fair tracks too, so the only hard luck stories you can fear are the fallers and slipped-up.
I almost hate the Breeders Cup. I don’t like all the American razzmatazz b******t, I don’t like dirt racing and I don’t like the fact that it is built up as a world championship. World championship with the likes of Caspar Netscher and Toast Of New York running – do me a favour – and one of them nearly won.
It’s crap basically and i’d rather throw my money down the drain than have a bet on any race.
One final point – ATR’s coverage – absolutely abysmal. No British studio analysis, nothing, just Nick Luck looking the odd one out surrounded by the Yanks. There was no preview programme either it’s as if ATR couldn’t be bothered and to be honest I don’t blame them.
Breeders Cup, Dubai World Cup – all a load of tosh that in reality 99% of Brits really couldn’t give a flying fig about.
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