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It seems to me , if I recall correctly that Sheik Mo took his horses out of Henry’s yard when he would not travel overseas to race internationally.Are we about to see the same scenario unfold with Frankel? Is he to be crowned the best horse in GB rather than the best in the world.I believe Black Cavier is traveling to take on the best in the world. If Franlkel refuses to travel can he be proclaimed the best in the world?
I suppose you have a point, in the same way that as Arkle only ever raced in the UK you can only say Arkle is maybe the best UK steeplechaser as he didn’t take on the rest of the world.
Ah, but the UK/Ireland have ~95% of the world’s greatest steeplechasers. There’s a reason
all
of the greatest American jumpers, hurdlers and timber horses alike, went over to the UK at some point.
And unlike in steeplechasing, most of the most prestigious flat races – Breeders Cup, Dubai World Cup, Japan Cup, Melbourne Cup, Arc – are not in the UK. So great English flat horses do have to travel-Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, Fantastic Light of course, High Chaparral, Conduit, Sea the Stars, Workforce, etc. etc. Why should Frankel be any different?
It seems to me , if I recall correctly that Sheik Mo took his horses out of Henry’s yard when he would not travel overseas to race internationally.Are we about to see the same scenario unfold with Frankel? Is he to be crowned the best horse in GB rather than the best in the world.I believe Black Cavier is traveling to take on the best in the world. If Franlkel refuses to travel can he be proclaimed the best in the world?
Sheikh Mohammed took his horses away from Henry because of Henry’s second wife. There was an incident when one of his horses was injured, and Henry’s wife told the press about it before the stable had the chance to tell the owner. Later Sheikh Mohammed called a press conference at which he let it be known that Mrs Cecil’s actions had played a part in his decision to remove his horses.
It was relatively common for Henry to send horses abroad from early in his career. He had a Group 1 winner in Italy as far back as 1972 and an Irish Classic winner in 1973. He had
fifteen
Group winners on foreign soil for Sheikh Mohammed alone, and plenty of other Group winners abroad for his other patrons.
Ah, but the UK/Ireland have ~95% of the world’s greatest steeplechasers. There’s a reason
all
of the greatest American jumpers, hurdlers and timber horses alike, went over to the UK at some point.
And unlike in steeplechasing, most of the most prestigious flat races – Breeders Cup, Dubai World Cup, Japan Cup, Melbourne Cup, Arc – are not in the UK. So great English flat horses do have to travel-Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, Fantastic Light of course, High Chaparral, Conduit, Sea the Stars, Workforce, etc. etc. Why should Frankel be any different?
Similarly, one could ask the question: "Why should American champions be any different?". Since you list some races in other countries, and UK horses as far back as Mill Reef, is there a list somewhere of the USA champions since 1970 who have participated in the Japan Cup, the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe, the Melbourne Cup, or any European, Japanese or Australian all-aged championship race?
I think the answer to why any horse should be different might be two-fold. One; it has not proved necessary to race abroad to establish championship credentials. Two; there is no point racing under conditions that do not suit the horse.
If you consider Sea The Stars as being "OK" because he raced abroad, I wonder which races in France or Ireland would Frankel contest, when the Irish and French trainers seem perfectly happy to send their horses to challenge in the top eight and ten furlong races in the UK. It would only be worthwhile for Frankel to travel abroad to contest the Arc, if the conditions were right, and connections thought the horse would stay the trip. It would be interesting to see how many American challengers there would be in the race.
If anyone has a list of races contested and won abroad by top trainers in the US and top trainers in the UK, I would be very interested to see it. Since the owners make the decisions about racing their horses abroad, it is worth noting that Juddmonte (Prince Khaled Abdulla) do much more than most in this respect.
And unlike in steeplechasing, most of the most prestigious flat races – Breeders Cup, Dubai World Cup, Japan Cup, Melbourne Cup, Arc – are not in the UK. So great English flat horses do have to travel-Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, Fantastic Light of course, High Chaparral, Conduit, Sea the Stars, Workforce, etc. etc. Why should Frankel be any different?
You’ve got a weird idea of "Great" English horses Miss Woodford.
Don’t think our Irish friends will like you calling High Chapperal and Sea The Stars "English".
It’s interesting none of those races you mention are Mile races and all of the horses mentioned stayed 1 1/2 miles. Frankel won’t get 1 1/2 miles, so the last three races are out. That leaves the first two, which are on the wrong kind of surface for Frankel. So why would connections want to demonstrate how good Frankel is, on a course he wouldn’t neccesarily be as good on?
With an 8 to 10 furlong horse there is little need to race in any other country bar Britain. Ireland has no top races at a mile for older horses. British Group 1’s at a mile: Lockinge, Queen Anne, Sussex, QEII. And with so many in Britain there’s no need to go to France. Irish Champion Stakes is the only worthwhile European target for the 10 furlong brigade outside Britain. British Group 1’s at 10f: Eclipse, Prince Of Wales, International, English Champion. The top Irish 8-10f horses have no choice but to race in Britain. With so many British races to go for, it seems just as sensible for Brits to stay at home… And before you say "They should do it for the good of the sport", Americans do just the same. How many true American "Greats" have raced over here?
We saw how Americans like to dismiss UK Great horses after one poor performance in the US, when Dancing Brave failed. Maybe the same owner is wary of the same thing happening. And maybe the owner does not want a repeat of the furore when Workforce had to be pulled out of the Breeders Cup.
I am not aware that Sir Henry has said "No" to traveling to the USA, he just wants to play down the possibility. In case it is not right for the horse at the time. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Frankel remain in training as a five year old.
By not going to America, it’s possible Sir Henry is leaving the option of keeping to a mile for the Sussex and may be a clash with Black Caviar. Before a first tilt at 10f in the Prince Of Wales. It would be crazy to have his first 10f start in the "Classic".
Fantastic Light was in no way "Great", neither was High Chapperal, Conduit, not even the best of their generation.
It’s strange how just because a UK (or European horse) wins in the US, you guys (and gals) think their ability is in some way elevated. They were/are just as good when racing in Britain.
Of course it would be nice to see Frankel put up a stunning performance in the Breeders Cup, I’d like to see it myself. But he does not "have to travel".
Value Is EverythingI see the usual suspects have the knives out for Frankel before his season has even begun!
As Chas and Dave so eloquently put it:
"Oh Darlin…………..there ain’t no pleasin you!"
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Ahhh the age old thinking that obviously the best thing in America is automatically the best in the world, and to be the best you have to go over there and beat what they have. I would like to see Frankel go to the BC, but would there be any point in running a turf horse on dirt in his last ever race ?….is there a furore amongst American race fans to run their dirt horses in 10f turf races over here ?
The compass is always shifting regarding the best in the world and at this moment it’s pointing directly at the UK and Frankel if only because he has taken on and beaten better horses than Black Caviar has.
Right now there can be little doubt about the status of the two but there will always be doubters. The difference is if you said both were not the best in the world more people would laugh at you if you said it about Frankel than would if you said it about Black Caviar.
I would suggest, because she is Australian a few more international racing fans and pundits might dispute how good Black Caviar actually, than they would Frankel.
That is just the way of the world. The Aussies don’t have the race that can make her an undisputed champion so to silence the doubters she’ll come to Ascot to strut her stuff.
Perhaps if there was some horse in the USA that was a worthy challenger Henry would do as the Aussies will do but to travel over there to beat nothing and maybe lose because of the unfamiliar surface makes no sense. If he wins apart from the prize money he gains nothing if he loses? his reputation goes down the Swanee.
Frankel would gain much more credit winning a 10 furlong race in the UK against the best or even better a 12 furlong race than he would winning a poorly contested Breeders.
Of course Frankel can be considered the best in the World Andyod, if he puts up performance/s better than any other racehorse in the World.
Over a mile Ginge,lets not confuse the fact that ‘Frankel’ wouldn’t beat a 100 rated handicapper who gets a 11/2m over that very trip………The trip of true legends.He’s the worlds best miler,thats it!
So Brigadier Gerard was not a true legend?
He may have won over further but he wasn’t anywhere near as good as Mill Reef was over 12 furlongs but at 8f he was very much his superior.
Frankel was the best in the world last season and deserved every bit of his rating. Distance has nothing to do with it.
Who knows what trip he will get this season? How can you possible use the world FACT when you have no idea how far he will get.
There’s 2 1/2 stones between Frankel and 100 rated handicappers He’d find it very hard to lose against one of those at any trip.
Part of the Brigadier’s greatness is due to the fact that he had the class to win over 12 furlongs despite it being well beyond his best trip.
While KF does not know for certain that Frankel will not stay beyond a mile, at present Frankel has only proved himself at that distance. Even if Frankel does prove capable of winning at 10f, I sincerely doubt he will show improved form at that distance. To my mind, his finest performance was at Goodwood over a very sharp mile, therefore I could easily see Frankel showing as much ability at 6f as at 10f.
Let’s hope he has trained on and we will find out on the racecourse during the coming season.
Part of the Brigadier’s greatness is due to the fact that he had the class to win over 12 furlongs despite it being well beyond his best trip.
While KF does not know for certain that Frankel will not stay beyond a mile, at present Frankel has only proved himself at that distance. Even if Frankel does prove capable of winning at 10f, I sincerely doubt he will show improved form at that distance. To my mind, his finest performance was at Goodwood over a very sharp mile, therefore I could easily see Frankel showing as much ability at 6f as at 10f.
Let’s hope he has trained on and we will find out on the racecourse during the coming season.
Is Goodwood a very sharp mile?
You didnt really rate the Guineas performance then EF? Or the QEII? How about the Royal Lodge?
Thankfully Sir H sincerely thinks you are wrong and he WILL improve but, like you say, we will find out on the racecourse.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Who knows what trip he will get this season? How can you possible use the world FACT when you have no idea how far he will get.
There’s 2 1/2 stones between Frankel and 100 rated handicappers He’d find it very hard to lose against one of those at any trip.
HGM – KF will wind us up on this until Frankel runs over 10f and even then he will say he is no legend because he hasnt run over 12f which is his new criteria for being a great.
He never rated him as a 2 year old and laid him for the Dewhurst. Then he said he wouldnt train on and laid him for the Guineas. Then he said his temperament would get the better of him and laid him for the rest of the season. Now he says he is "just a good miler" and uses the term "miler" as though it is of no significance. He finds it impossible to give the horse any real credit despite his considerable achievements.
He will say that he correctly told us that he wouldnt run in the Derby and bravo for that. Let’s not forget that if he DOES win over 10f he will have won Group 1 races between 7 and 10f and as a 2, 3 and 4 year old.
As the self proclaimed Ante Post King it must really irk him to know he got it so hopelessly wrong from the start and missed all those lovely big ante post prices.
Short of winning the King George or Arc there is nothing this horse can do to change Mr Pig Headed Stubborn Pain in Butt Poster of the Year!
Like I say he will wind us up all year and as you can see I will gladly bite!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I think it’s fair criticism. The best in the world are just so because they can perform in different conditions on different courses. Sea The Stars ( much superior to Frankel in my opinion ) went and proved it in the Arc – there are many others.
Totti – gifted footballer but useless outside his own backyard.
Joni, his Guineas performance was above average for a Guineas winner but over-rated, especially by Timeform. The QEII was an unsatisfactory race and although his jockey failed to settle him, it did not seem to adversely affect him and it was certainly not an improvement on his Sussex Stakes performance. To my mind, his performance at Royal Ascot was far better than the bare result, he was poorly ridden and won in spite of his jockey. In the Sussex Stakes, his jockey gave him a good ride and the horse showed what a graceful animal he is, this is his best performance to date.
Having read Henry’s comments, he believes that Frankel has improved physically from 3 to 4 but I have not read anywhere that he thinks he will prove to be a better racehorse at 10f than a mile, he leaves such speculation to the fools in the press and on racing forums.
I think it’s fair criticism. The best in the world are just so because they can perform in different conditions on different courses. Sea The Stars ( much superior to Frankel in my opinion ) went and proved it in the Arc – there are many others.
Totti – gifted footballer but useless outside his own backyard.
Sea The Stars was a wonderful horse and everyone is entitled to their opinion Mark but how anyone can honestly say he or any other modern day horse is "much superior" to Frankel is quite beyond me.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Joni, his Guineas performance was above average for a Guineas winner but over-rated, especially by Timeform. The QEII was an unsatisfactory race and although his jockey failed to settle him, it did not seem to adversely affect him and it was certainly not an improvement on his Sussex Stakes performance. To my mind, his performance at Royal Ascot was far better than the bare result, he was poorly ridden and won in spite of his jockey. In the Sussex Stakes, his jockey gave him a good ride and the horse showed what a graceful animal he is, this is his best performance to date.
Having read Henry’s comments, he believes that Frankel has improved physically from 3 to 4 but I have not read anywhere that he thinks he will prove to be a better racehorse at 10f than a mile, he leaves such speculation to the fools in the press and on racing forums.
Oh it was over rated was it? Sorry I didnt realise. I thought it was rather special myself.
I didnt say that the QEII was an improvement on his Sussex Stakes performance. I just say it was a great performance.
Henry in todays Weekender "I have said that he is the best I have seen and if he continues to settle and improve, as I think he will this year, then he could be very exciting."
And on his website "Personally I think it (10f) is a distance he will get well now that he has learnt to settle better and he could be an even better horse at that trip"
Time will tell hey?!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I seem to have said his "finest" performance, I think this means that which is superior to the rest.
Frankel is a very good horse with serious personality flaws.Henry is a world class trainer who has yet to figure out Frankel.If and when he does we will be able to make an honest evaluation of Frankel. But for now he is a seriously flawed thoroughbred horse with incredible potential.My remarks are based on the fact that Henry has so much difficulty getting hime to settle. He is now four and pretty soon either Henry will have to say the horse is ready to go on or that he cannot train him.If the horse was not flawed he would travel like any other and race internationally like any other horse.There would be no need for the "perfect" ride,or the "perfect" conditions for him to win.Did STS get a perfect ride every time he was ridden especially in the Arc?
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