- This topic has 21 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Not for the first time this season, Tinkler as let me down.
I have to say that yes I am talking through my pocket but I weigh things up carefully before having a good bet and I take jockeys into account.
I always see Tinkler as a 5lb penalty to a horse.
However today on Whisper he seemed to excel himself, for a horse that is normally a good jumper it did not jump the first 3 good, however when it looked that somehow it was going to win, he seemed to virtually pull the horse up going to the last losing a 1 to 2 length advanatage, landing on all 4s, losing momentum and then just failing to get up.
Lydia Hislop even commented on RUK that Whisper had got beat over at Ffos Las due to the more decisive ride at the last by the winner.
He did something similar earlier in the season on Rosie Probert and I do normally avoid him but just felt Whisper was a good thing today.
You can guess that I put him in the bad categoryDidn’t bet on the race, agree that it was a bad ride when a race is so close coming to the last you have to look for a big jump, for me Tinkler didn’t do that. The jump at the last definitley cost the horse the race.
Did not have a bet in the race NI and had I done so think I’d be starting a similar thread. Couldn’t blame you if the TV had a hole in it this evening.
Going to the last Andrew seemed to have the measure of Harry, but couldn’t see a stride from some way out. Slowing right up in to the flight and compounding the situation by hitting it; losing even more valuable momentum. Thought he might get done for over-use of the whip on the run-in too.
I don’t take jockeyship in to account as much as most punters, but the name Tinkler is not a name I like to see against one of my bets.
Value Is EverythingHad
Whisper
got his head in front today and I for one thought he was a certainty, the fact remains the moral winner was the vastly improved
Saphir du rheu
,that horse was a whole 21lb worse off with his young rival on earlier form from this season and that has to be applauded. I agree however,the thought of Tinkler on
My tent or yours
in the Champion hurdle!
He’s a poor jockey, in my opinion, but Henderson uses him for one reason or another. Retains a strike rate of around 20% for the yard but is helped there with some easy maiden and novice races.
Foley was similar. You’d see a horse that looked primed to win and the sight of Foley’s name on it…uuurrrrrrgggggggggghhh.
Both good schooling jockeys but not ones to rely on in a finish.
My father needed French Opera in the 2009 Grand Annual for a massive win and had expected Geraghty to ride him. However, Barry opted for Petit Robin and Foley rode French Opera ( or maybe the yard let Foley ride the latter as i think it was his last festival as a jockey ) and proceeded to make mistakes at almost every fence on the final ciruit – the horse was obviously well handicapped as it still managed to come third despite hitting some fences like a truck. Foley had a mare.
I often think Andrew Tinkler does better with his outside rides than those he picks up for the Henderson yard.
Every time he gets a good Saturday ride, the press seem to pick up on it being a "big responsibility for Tinkler" or "good opportunity for the understudy". That sort of pressure and subtle suggestion about whether he is good enough for the horses must gnaw at the confidence after a while.
I prefer to see him on one of Henry Daly’s chasers than a Henderson hotpot.
The race was one of the worst I have ever watched
.The pace of the race from the offset was so slow, I was amazed that they even had the momentum to even jump the hurdles, and from a class 2 race I would have expected a speed figure of at least
125+
after the heavy going allowance adjustment, what did we get
26
At The Races should run a contest for the worst ride by a jockey and Andrew Tinkler would be a shoo in to win, and no I didn’t have a bet in the race
Had
Whisper
got his head in front today and I for one thought he was a certainty, the fact remains the moral winner was the vastly improved
Saphir du rheu
,that horse was a whole 21lb worse off with his young rival on earlier form from this season and that has to be applauded. I agree however,the thought of Tinkler on
My tent or yours
in the Champion hurdle!
I think Saphir De Rheu wants three miles, better ground than yesterday and to be held up. Given the circumstances he has done particularly well to win. Hopefully, the hardish race will be a long-term plus rather than a negative. Having backed the horse for the World Hurdle I am slightly biased but I think it is a shame that Nicholls appears to be going all out to steer the owner away from Cheltenham. The horse is clearly improving at a rate of knots and it wouldn’t be such a surprise if he were to pose more of a threat to the favourites than the relatively exposed trio of Zarkandar, Celestial Halo and Salubrious. Last time I looked Salubrious was 25/1 so why would you seriously want to run that instead of a 10/1 shot? Yes, he might be a future chaser but surely giving him his chance in a Championship race (I think you are allowed to pull up) is hardly going to do him any more long-term damage than running in three competitive handicaps? Strikes me this is probably about Nicholls wanting to be in control.
I have no strong opinion on A Tinkler. He strikes me as a good midlist jockey who’ll never quite make the big time – unlike N Fehily who’d have been slotted by many into the same class as Tinkler, but NF’s main problem was a lengthy spate of injuries.
Anyway, on the point of seeing a stride. You either see it or you don’t. If you think back to your school sports days and the long jump, you had to hit that take-off board spot on. The closer you got to it the more you’d see the need to shorten or lengthen your stride.
A horse, especially a tired one, isn’t always going to have that cognitive ability to see and measure a stride – that apart from the fact that he has someone on his back who might have different ideas from him about the ideal take-off point. If a jockey has time, and the horse sufficient energy, he can at least try and get the horse to shorten/lengthen, change legs (the human equivalent of skipping along the road, if you can live with another childhood analogy).
Put yourself in the position of the jock – whether it’s Tinkler or anyone else. You’re going to the last with a solid chance – the priority is to get safely to the other side. You see – in Tinkler’s case that you are definitely not on stride – what can you do?
It happens to the best. After Annie Power’s final flight blunder at Donny, Ruby put his hands up right away. "I did what I shouldn’t, looked round after the second last because you immediately see that whatever you do, you must jump the last safely because there are no challengers. By the time you think this through it’s too late and you haven’t made up your mind whether to pop it or ask her up." (I paraphrase)
They’re only 2 strides from the hurdle when Whisper realizes he’s not meeting it correctly (Tinkler has already realized and has tried to shorten the horse up just as the horse takes his own action by going right to try and find himself another yard of ground. It actually looks as if he’s propped at it but he seems a most genuine animal so I’d assume what he has done is tried to find that extra yard to his right).
They’ve flattened it, but he’s still in the race and battling. FWIW, I very much doubt he’d have beaten the winner even if he’d flown the last – SDR was idling and had a fair wee bit in hand to my eye.
Anyway, that’s my take on it. Tinkler saw a stride fine two out, he was just unlucky at the last imo. There’s not a jockey alive or dead who hasn’t gone through the same experience.
PS
Much of J Francome’s success was the ability regularly to see a stride a good deal farther from a jump than many of his contemporaries.I backed two horses in a short priced double yesterday.
One was Oscar Whisky – boy, did that one give me palpitations –
and the other was Saphir De Rheu – based on his previous facile win, and allied to his trainer’s high opinion of him.
I knew The 21bs he was conceding to Whisper would make the outcome very close, and I must admit, as both horses approached the last hurdle, I felt my goose was well and truly cooked.
But class will out as they say. I am not the greatest fan of Andrew Tinkler but I felt he gave Whisper every chance and put him into a winning position, in spite of the horse railing against him. My take is that he and Whisper were simply outbattled by a much classier horse – if not a better a jockey.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I have no strong opinion on A Tinkler. He strikes me as a good midlist jockey who’ll never quite make the big time – unlike N Fehily who’d have been slotted by many into the same class as Tinkler, but NF’s main problem was a lengthy spate of injuries.
Anyway, on the point of seeing a stride. You either see it or you don’t. If you think back to your school sports days and the long jump, you had to hit that take-off board spot on. The closer you got to it the more you’d see the need to shorten or lengthen your stride.
A horse, especially a tired one, isn’t always going to have that cognitive ability to see and measure a stride – that apart from the fact that he has someone on his back who might have different ideas from him about the ideal take-off point. If a jockey has time, and the horse sufficient energy, he can at least try and get the horse to shorten/lengthen, change legs (the human equivalent of skipping along the road, if you can live with another childhood analogy).
Put yourself in the position of the jock – whether it’s Tinkler or anyone else. You’re going to the last with a solid chance – the priority is to get safely to the other side. You see – in Tinkler’s case that you are definitely not on stride – what can you do?
It happens to the best. After Annie Power’s final flight blunder at Donny, Ruby put his hands up right away. "I did what I shouldn’t, looked round after the second last because you immediately see that whatever you do, you must jump the last safely because there are no challengers. By the time you think this through it’s too late and you haven’t made up your mind whether to pop it or ask her up." (I paraphrase)
They’re only 2 strides from the hurdle when Whisper realizes he’s not meeting it correctly (Tinkler has already realized and has tried to shorten the horse up just as the horse takes his own action by going right to try and find himself another yard of ground. It actually looks as if he’s propped at it but he seems a most genuine animal so I’d assume what he has done is tried to find that extra yard to his right).
They’ve flattened it, but he’s still in the race and battling. FWIW, I very much doubt he’d have beaten the winner even if he’d flown the last – SDR was idling and had a fair wee bit in hand to my eye.
Anyway, that’s my take on it. Tinkler saw a stride fine two out, he was just unlucky at the last imo. There’s not a jockey alive or dead who hasn’t gone through the same experience.
PS
Much of J Francome’s success was the ability regularly to see a stride a good deal farther from a jump than many of his contemporaries.There is a time for a jockey to "pop the last" Joe, slowing up when so far clear to make sure of winning (like Ruby Walsh can afford to do on Annie Power). But Tinkler wasn’t clear.
I’ve replayed the event at least 20 times. Whisper was just getting the upper hand between two and one out. Then, at least 6 if not 7 strides from the final flight the jockey almost drops his hands, leaving it for the horse to shorten/find its stride. Think you’re excusing Tinkler too much Joe, more than likely jockey pulled on the reign in the last couple of strides, going right; got too close and hit it.
Tinkler began this manoever so far out that had he done the opposite – lengthening the horse in to the obstacle – he’d probably have found a perfect stride (one less). I’d estimate his and Harry’s momentums should have meant Andrew jumping around 1/2 to 3/4 of a length up… Not upsides! That difference compounded AGAIN after the flight due to both speed of jump and mistake.
I don’t like making comparissons between how many lengths were lost at an obstacle and what winning distances are, because as you rightly say Joe, there are other factors to consider. SDR may or may not have been idling; but Whisper did have to regain momentum and once he did so made up ground. I believe the probability is Whisper would’ve won without Tinkler’s actions.
Is
"priority is to get safely to the other side"?
OK, you can’t win without jumping, but you don’t lose so much ground to predjudice your chance. Priority is to WIN the race. Would you really say a jockey should slow so much going in to the last in the Cheltenham Gold Cup?
Don’t usually blame jockeys for mistakes, but on this occasion believe Tinkler had better options.
Another reason I do not rate this jockey…
What did you think of Andrew’s whip action Joe? Seemed to me he used it without giving his mount time to respond. Not only after the last, but also before it!
Before dropping his hands at the flight. Doesn’t use it too often, but it’s ALL or nothing.Poor ride all round.
Value Is EverythingGinger, I watched again a few times. I think there’s nothing wrong with the ride at all. After jumping two out Whisper is getting slightly outpaced (despite SDR having flattened that hurdle after HD asked him up and he didn’t rise). Tinkler shakes him up and kicks him on giving him time to respond to that action before rousting him along with three sharp backhanders – none looking delivered with any force.
As for asking him to lengthen to meet it on the right stride, you’re assuming two things:
1 Tinkler has seen the stride he needs (in other words the perfect takeoff point)
2 The horse has enough in reserve to ‘lengthen’ in that ground off a very late request (he failed to lengthen when asked to after the second last, hence Tinkler’s smacks)
Also, I’m giving the horse the benefit of the doubt, but his head definitely goes up and right, then he goes right. I’m assuming he was trying to correct himself, but it might just have been a slight sign of waywardness.
AT’s whip use after the last was textbook imo. Hitting the horse in rhythm and getting a response each time.
The more I watch the rerun, the more I think AT is being very hard done by on this thread.
Good thread this but if you want to get into the nitty gritttys of ‘Tinklers’ ride then one could ask ‘Why did he let his horse pull so hard early doors’?
Whisper
is the sort of horse who could have made the running too. Again for such a sedate pace I felt ‘Tinkler’ gave the winner too much rope.Now that might sound like a stupid assessment to some but virtually every race the horse has ran in he’s committed at the 2nd last and maintained his run,so ‘Why did he hold on to ‘Whisper’ right up to challenging at the last’? which in effect cost the horse the race.’Tinkler’ knew he was 21lbs better off with the winner ‘Did he think he could take him as he pleased knowing such a weight difference tells’? Yep he too thought he was on a good thing so trying to be clever he timed his run to perfection……Well almost,he just never accounted for fluffing the last.Had he tested ‘Saphir’ knowing weight tells he might just have bottomed the winner and scraped home himself……One thing for sure though is the winner is a serious horse,a horse who has improved a ton and looks like he still will,a horse who has RSA written all over him just like ‘Denman’ had and 25/1 with Bet365 is generous.Few horses get the better of my judgement of them but this fellow has.I still hope
Whisper
goes Coral cup though as I expect him to win.
I know we all have our own way of race reading, but I’m beginning to think I’m watching a different race from some of you
Gord, he delivered Whisper 2 out, that’s exactly where he made his challenge. As SDR tried to quicken away through what would have been 3 out, Tinkler went with him, having tracked him throughout on the inside.
Coming away from 2 out, where they’d landed almost together, SDR was simply stronger than the favourite, who took that bit of rousting to get back on terms.
Yes, the horse was keen in snatches (he got him quite well settled not long after jumping the first, but the horse lit up again half a mile later – another indication that Whisper might not be altogether straightforward. Also, he has never led throughout; most of his comments are ‘tracked leaders’.
I’m against jockeys fighting long battles to settle a horse, but where do you draw the line, especially in that ground? Had Tinkler allowed him to get on with it, he’s effectively saying to the horse ‘OK, you win’. Had he let him go on, he might not have been in the first three – we’ll never know. Also, he’s on a fav for a big yard and will be riding to instructions.
Tinkler looks bad because Geraghty is so good. The rest of the jockeys out there comparatively look bad because Ruby is so good.
Surely though JJM, in this case we are not judging Andrew against Barry or Ruby, but Harry… A conditional jockey.
Given the choice between the two – I’d rather have the conditional with or without the allowance.
Value Is EverythingI know we all have our own way of race reading, but I’m beginning to think I’m watching a different race from some of you
Gord, he delivered Whisper 2 out, that’s exactly where he made his challenge. As SDR tried to quicken away through what would have been 3 out, Tinkler went with him, having tracked him throughout on the inside.
Coming away from 2 out, where they’d landed almost together, SDR was simply stronger than the favourite, who took that bit of rousting to get back on terms.
Yes, the horse was keen in snatches (he got him quite well settled not long after jumping the first, but the horse lit up again half a mile later – another indication that Whisper might not be altogether straightforward. Also, he has never led throughout; most of his comments are ‘tracked leaders’.
I’m against jockeys fighting long battles to settle a horse, but where do you draw the line, especially in that ground? Had Tinkler allowed him to get on with it, he’s effectively saying to the horse ‘OK, you win’. Had he let him go on, he might not have been in the first three – we’ll never know. Also, he’s on a fav for a big yard and will be riding to instructions.
You read the race well Joe,I just have a niggling issue with the fact that when a horse is seriously weighted to reverse form with his conqueror what you dont do is let that conqueror dictate the rules to suit it.’Tinkler’ should have been playing his hand to run the stuffing out of a horse carrying 21lbs more than the last time they crossed swords,he didn’t and Harry Derham rode a peach of a race dictating to ‘Tinkler’ the ‘terms and conditions’.Jockeyship won the day but for all my sour grapes I have to admit that
Saphir du rheu
proved a lot of us wrong by improving yet again.No question he’s a Grade 1 horse in the making,
Whisper
lacks the scope to develop that far.I’ll settle for a ‘Coral Cup’ victory myself.
Before dropping his hands at the flight. 
Doesn’t use it too often, but it’s ALL or nothing.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.