A step on The Long And Winding Road

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This topic contains 165 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by Gingertipster Gingertipster 2 weeks, 3 days ago.

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  • #1449177
    Nathan Hughes
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    They’ll change the rules
    only one shout in the last half furlong
    and no more than two kicks in the belly

    Don't Eat The Pie and Don't Buy The S*n
    #1449183
    KevMc
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    Ruby – If you whip hurt the horse the horse would slow down or veer violently away from the pain? They would more than likely have a mark where that pain was inflicted also. This is of course not proven, but logically i would like to think it makes sense.

    A 500KG animal being hit with a stick of padded foam from a 60-70KG jockey who is trying to balance & steer as well as hit the horse with said foam – How much force can this foam really have on the horse? Even more so a horse which is surging with adrenaline during flight response.

    Shouting at the horses is very common, particularly with the French & US jockeys. James Reveley for example –

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jQwaQAWkmU

    This is another method of enhancing the flight response in the horse.

    What i think everyone would perhaps agree is that the BHA are failing by not having a video being shown on ITV Racing and a stand at the racing itself which educates the viewer that the whip is padded foam & it’s purpose to the horse & jockey. This would help spread education quickly and effectively.

    #1449184
    Tonge
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    The BHA are failing generally. The whip is just one manifestation of the image problem that racing suffers from, on which only John Gosden has had anything sensible to say publicly (that I’ve heard). As others here have already highlighted, there is a sorry lack of ongoing research and evidence available and the BHA seems perfectly content to allow Animal Aid & co to take the lead when it comes to providing information about welfare issues. I don’t believe a whip ban would represent a threat to racing if it was handled properly from within the industry and based on sound evidence-backed arguments (which doesn’t mean to say that I think it will or should happen), however, if it is imposed from outside as a knee-jerk reaction, then is is most certainly a threat as it shows that racing has lost the argument.

    In the immediate future if the BHA wants to prove that it is genuinely concerned about horse welfare, I’d say it needs to prevent the jumps meeting at Southwell going ahead on what is widely forecast as being the hottest July day day ever. A 2 mile 4f chase at 13.55 followed by a 3 mile chase at 14.25 is surely asking for trouble?

    #1449239
    Gingertipster
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    Oh dear, Drone.
    Am sure campaigners would love a test involving just a small group of the racehorse population.

    A small group of the racehorse population will undoubtedly be just as effective in whipless races – the majority won’t be. Therefore, any test races/series are bound to attract primarily those suited by whipless racing – so of course you’d get a false positive result with any trial.

    However, once every horse in every race is whipless, it’ll be a totally different story… But – as the trial will be deemed a “success” – the whip will be banned on welfare grounds and it’ll be impossible to go back to the supposedly cruel whip.

    value is everything
    #1449248
    jackh1092
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    How do we know that the whip doesn’t hurt? How did we come to this conclusion? Surely, there must have been thousands of horses tested all over the world apparently with no ill effects at all. So, if it doesn’t hurt why can’t it be used 20-30 times during a race? And if you’d hit a little child with it, why would authorities arrest you?
    Same thing applies to a horse box: how do we know that horses feel comfortable being surrounded by four concrete walls with roughly 25-30 square metres of space? Who approved that?

    How do you know horses like being in stables, in enclosed paddocks, they are wild animals? Sure while we ban the whip should we set every animal free again as they can’t tell us when they don’t like being held captive?

    Twitter: Jackh1092
    Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!

    #1449249
    Drone
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    GingerFacts wrote:

    Therefore, any test races/series are bound to attract primarily those suited by whipless racing – so of course you’d get a false positive result with any trial

    Oh dear, GingerOpinions: it surely goes without saying that whipless trials for horses who don’t need the whip or actually resent it would be pointless; and anyone who’d draw conclusions from them for the population in general would be given the shortest of shrifts they’d deserve

    I have as much faith in the BHA as I did in the now sadly departed Chris Grayling; but it shouldn’t be beyond even their limited capabilities to instigate whipless trials for horses known to be ‘lazy’ ‘difficult rides’ ‘need strong handling’ blah blah. Perhaps whipless fields comprised entirely of your beloved ‘squigglers’ would be an entertaining spectacle

    Incidentally, I wouldn’t ban the carrying of a whip (or perhaps a crop) in these trials. The safety of horse and particularly the rider would be compromised if it were not available for ‘last resort’ control: just don’t permit it’s use for ‘encouragement’. This I believe is/was the case in the Hands and Heels apprentice races

    You’re aware aren’t you that I’m not anti-whip?; infact I think the obsession with it, epitomised by its regular reprising on TRF is tiresome in the extreme; or as Vince Cable would say BOLLOCKS

    #1449250
    Drone
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    Homersimpson wrote:

    During one race you could hear a lot of the jockeys shouting. Not sure if this was at each other for position but I did hear at least one shout which was encouragement towards the horse. It occurred to me then that this could become a regular thing if the whip was removed

    Those who have actually ridden a horse would be more qualified than I to gauge the effectiveness of vocal encouragement but I’m sure a lot of riders use it, consciously or subconsciously

    Steve Cauthen, the horseman sans pareil, utilised by his own admission all sorts of vocalising during a race

    #1449251
    LostSoldier3
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    I don’t think your response to GT makes any sense, Droney.

    #1449254
    Drone
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    You could well be right LS3 but it would nonetheless be nice to know why you think it makes no sense

    #1449259
    LostSoldier3
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    Well, you’re just manipulating and misunderstanding his point with your little wordplay and tangents aren’t you?

    You didn’t really respond to the very valid point that a ‘whipless trial’ would almost certainly be deemed a ‘success’ and used as a big tool for leverage by the anti-whip boys. Because to someone who only understands the sport superficially (and I’d include the BHA, pretty much anyone who isn’t at least breaking even betting on racing over a large churn and most spectators and posters on this forum), how can it not be a success? If nobody gets put through the rails and it’s a good clean race, it’d likely be job done and point proven as far as the antis are concerned.

    By the way, I don’t really agree with old Ginger in that only straightforward sorts would be entered as many of the current hands and heels races are populated by sour old goats who “go well for a girl”, do all their work on the bridle and humour unorthodox/inexperienced riders. But that’s just an aside.

    Realistically we need insight from the individuals and groups who have an appreciation and understanding of finishing speed %, sectionals etc and their relevance to hands and heels racing versus its viability as a competitive sport and betting proposition. I have no confidence that these people are being involved in anything the BHA does.

    #1449260
    Tonge
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    One of my enduring memories is when I persuaded a group of friends to come to the races for the first time. We were standing by the winning post and they were horrified at the sight of a jockey thrashing a tailed off horse past the line while shouting “come on you bitch”. I doubt the horse was harmed but none of them have ever came racing again. As others have said, perception matters.

    #1449262
    Drone
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    Wordplay and 89-Degree tangents are my stock-in-trade :yes:

    You didn’t really respond to the very valid point that a ‘whipless trial’ would almost certainly be deemed a ‘success’ and used as a big tool for leverage by the anti-whip boys.Because to someone who only understands the sport superficially

    Valid indeed, as those with a zealotry belief tend to be superficial and only want bias confirmed; and will extol it when they see it, however logically and statistically unsound their conclusions are. Being prepared to have one’s beliefs questioned and indeed to welcome alternative thought is a rare trait but one should endeavour to embrace it. The problem with this whip ‘debate’ in a nut shell: entrenched yay-and-nay positions, never the twin shall meet

    Realistically we need insight from the individuals and groups who have an appreciation and understanding of finishing speed %, sectionals etc and their relevance to hands and heels racing versus its viability as a competitive sport and betting proposition. I have no confidence that these people are being involved in anything the BHA does

    Quite agree, and such individuals are rare. I wonder what Simon Rowland’s opinions are as I believe he has at least been allowed a quiet whisper from the drawbridge of Stalag BHA

    Enough of my thought experiment: it will never be tested

    #1449265
    Gingertipster
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    Am aware of your own views on the whip, Drone; which is why I was surprised by your suggestion of a trial.

    I wish there was a way of testing whipless racing fairly, but regret there is no fair way. As LS has said, my point is that any trial will be deemed a success purely because it will attract primarily the small group suited by whipless racing. A false impression of success. You may be right that some in the BHA/authorities can allow for this in their own judgement. But the public and press will wrongly see it as a success for ALL horses. Indeed, what do you think the public/press view of the BHA would be if they announced “although it seemed successful, the wrong type of horse ran and therefore we won’t be expanding whipless rules to all”?

    I agree with you, LS; some prievously thought of as ungenuine (squiggle) horses will be suited by whipless racing. ie Those currently travelling well through a race and finding nothing for pressure will suddenly be described as genuine because they will no longer find nothing for pressure as there is no pressure. Where as many genuine well loved sorts – such as the recently deceased Beat The Bank – that currently find an enormous amount for pressure/the whip – will find far less and therefore be thought of as ungenuine/useless under whipless rules.

    value is everything
    #1449270
    steeplechasing
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    What’s the point of speculating as to how any horse would perform in a whipless race? Nobody knows. Because some horses resent the whip or some are ‘lazy’, who’s to say that they might not at some point realise they no longer get hit when the pressure is on. If that happened, might they race more ‘honestly’ and happily?

    Whipless races could just as easily increase the competitive nature of races in the long term.

    Never argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience, then onlookers might not be able to tell the difference. https://lazybet.com/

    #1449273
    KevMc
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    Joe, come on you’re better than this. You understand that horses in the main don’t understand they’re racing and are using their flight response.

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