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The brutal truth is that there are some human beings that like to see a horse "beaten" even if the horse feels very little, it gets their adrenalin going. I doubt those people would have the capacity to appreciate true horsemanship even if it had a 40ft long arrow and banner advising them of the fact.
Kingfisher
However, your treatment of, and insults to, those who disagree with us is offensive and shameful. Hopefully at some point in your life you will learn that actually listening to those who have opposing views (without insulting them) is both challenging and rewarding.
Mike
Mike,from your above post i take it you never frequented the ‘Lister Bar’?
Folks, let’s get REAL, the rules are here to stay.
Rick-stir is still on his knees praying every night for a jockeys strike (along as Cav’s agrees of course
) but with just six bans handed out -FACT- to Professional Flat & Jumps Jocks last month it ain’t gonna happen…..Rick-stirs Great White Hope knows this…… The Statistics -FACTS- prove racing is as competitive and as exciting as ever.
This is it folks…..get used to it….
Btw, the idea from Rick-stir & Macho Man KF that there has been some sort of collusion over anti-whip threads is ridculous. Me and The Boss have over the years PM’d each other less than half a dozen times and always on forum business, some of you may not what, and we have never Pm’d or spoken peronsally and I’ve never Pm’d or Spoken to Gtips at all…
Folks, let’s get REAL, the rules are here to stay.
Rick-stir is still on his knees praying every night for a jockeys strike (along as Cav’s agrees of course
) but with just six bans handed out -FACT- to Professional Flat & Jumps Jocks last month it ain’t gonna happen…..Rick-stirs Great White Hope knows this…… The Statistics -FACTS- prove racing is as competitive and as exciting as ever.
This is it folks…..get used to it….
Pompete,
Who do you consider to be doing/or has done a great job at the BHA?
Paul Roy?
Jamie Stier?
Tim Morris?
The Late Lamented Paul Struthers?
All of Them?
Anyone Else?
Rick-notstir, ignore the jibes of the Indian Ropeman and his Ginger assistant. They trade in illusions, we trade in Brian Harding. The Martyred One
http://www.auburnfootball.com/GIFS/27.gif
has the real figures
over there
.
Cav’s, between the current rules and the end of Nov can you let’s us know who many Flat & Jumps Professionals have been banned for Excuessive use of the whip….please.
If you disagree with the FACTS I have posted on here please say so….
This place has got so confrontational.
Wrong Ginger,your idea of debate is one where everyone agrees with a Gentlemans tip of the cap,i have noticed over the years you get squeaky Bum syndrome when things get heated.Your views on the whip debate are based on what you have been told to believe by those who have created them so you are basically a nodding dog going with the flow,its not your nature to say ‘Whoa hold on a minute,this is not going to work’.I would have thought the amount of Carpet Grippers you’ve laid in your time would have toughend you up a bit!
There you go again Fisher,
I have no problem with you or anyone else disagreeing with me. But if you really knew me, I would not be described as a "nodding dog". It is "in my nature to say "Whoa, hold on a minute"". I’ve had many run-ins with authority in my time, including as we speak. A Housing Association have overcharged (they call it "wrongly charged") myself and my (private home owner) neighbours for emptying our septic tank. I’ve refused to pay for the last two years, and will not do so until we get a settlement. Does that sound like a "nodding dog" to you? I am not in favour of everything the BHA does either.I on the other hand am having to listen to the constant sound of those who know whats good for the game telling me a horse wont find any extra for a crack or 10 of the whip,i know it will and have seen as much in the past 30yrs of studying Horseracing,
The Minstrel
proves that when winning The Derby and
Ballabrigs
winning The National. Supporting these changes only adds fuel to those who want to see an end to Horseracing in this country,they will be telling us next that a 2yo horse is too young to be racing,then a 12yo is too old! Remember when Humans could think for themselves?
You and many others Fisher, have the mug punter mentality of needing to see a horse be whipped. Purely because you equate the number of strokes to the amount a jockey is "trying" or how "good" the ride was. Whipping a horse can cause a horse to wander badly. Ask Richard Pitman if he regrets hitting Crisp! The amount of interference has gone down since the new rules came in.
What does "add fuel" to the stupid "animal aid" case is the fact those against these rule changes keep on keeping on. You are determined to keep the whip issue in the public eye. If you’d just forget about it, or give things a chance, then it would not be such a "problem issue".
I am not against 12 year old or 15 year old horses continuing to race IF they enjoy it.
When two year olds get leg problems, it helps to be young. The growing process helps to get over their problems. Where as had they started out as older horses, they’d still get those same problems. Only this time, being fully formed individuals, they struggle to recover.
The Minstrel proves nothing. Take another look at that ride. It was Willie Carson who rode them to sleep, nearly stealing it when kicking on while Piggott took it too easily. Hate to break it to you mate, but that rat-a-tat-tat finish was NOT outlawed in September, but many years ago. Nothing to do with the New Rules. It is my belief (unlike you Fisher, I do not report my opinion as fact) that The Minstrel would have responded just as well had Lester taken out every other stroke in the last 50 yards. Unlike you Fisher, I believe it was Lester Piggott’s artistry and rhythem that made the difference in the final 50 yards, NOT how many times The Minstrel was hit.
As for Ballabriggs, I think to understand the ride you have to go back to the 2010 Kim Muir. Ballabriggs going to the last (as I remember) 10 lengths clear and travelling much better than any other horse. Yet idled so badly on the run-in to only just hang on. In the National Maguire was at pains to make certain Ballabriggs did not idle on the run-in. However, although I have some sympathy with him, Jason overdid it. 16 times from last to winning post is too much. Some of those from the elbow to the line were not needed. A ride that got him in trouble under the OLD rules. So again the NEW rules can not be blamed.
Value Is EverythingIts about the same percentage of whip rule infringements as before they changed the rule in the first place, Pete. Back then of course jockeys weren’t getting banned for doing their best for the viewers/punters as well as looking after the horse.
Any welfare updates on the animals who got 9 stokes instead of 8, Pete?
Cavs, believe it of not I, and I’m sure The Boss, Gtips and others do understand the point you are making, and it is a good point…
…but, the evidence to date suggests racing can and will apapt to the world we live in, a world that accepts the whip as a part of horseracing, but not a part that allows a horse to be hit 27 times, or what ever it was just because some people on here (not yourself) think it’s REAL racing…..
te has divided this once ‘amicable’ forum,it has become increasingly apparent that when Cormack posts his opinions and someone dissagrees with them,one of his self promoted henchmen has to come to his rescue.For a bunch of so-called racing fans, who incidently grew up with the old rules and cheered home every one of their own winners that would have broken the latest rules it would seem somewhat hypocritical to comment on every jockey who gets banned for trying when in the past they never batted an eyelid or more likely it never even occured to them the Jockey had over done it.(Or did they just turn a blind eye and take the money?)In nature a Leopard grows up a Leopard,it doesn’t change its spots like the so-called racing fans on here who are forming a special bond falsely kidding themselves the whip rules are a success! I’d rather keep it REAL myself and state that for every 1000 races you guys see as the rules working it will only take 1 high profile race to prove they dont.Its coming,mark my words,every Grade 1 on the calender will have the BHA quaking in their boots.
Bloody good stuff King
Corm , this is how I have felt for a while
Each time you or one of your advocates posts , its only a question of time before , Pomp , coggy , Ginger , or yourself posts a rebuttal , there are a few others that pop up as well
It may be a huge coincidence of course , I doubt that though
It seems that sensible debate has gone out the window now , we are left with attacks , personalised and nasty
My Argument is this
1 whip rules are unnecessary, were brought about by appeasement to RSPCA etc
1b as a result these charities can now feel confident to have racing changed or stopped , after all they have the power , or so it seems
2 It has effected the way races are run for me , been watching it since 1955 , the whole cut and thrust of the finishes have been removed , the few exceptions have met with bannage
I strongly feel that racing will be sanitized beyond recognition , and cheating will be rife as a result
3 It has taken away the confidence from having a bet
4 disbelief at the way it was introduced and the timing
5 limited room for manoeuvre to resolve,apart from an all out strike , which would be damaging
The stroke allowances are simply not enough , the punishments are just far too harsh , if you disagree fair enough , I just wonder what sort of world you live in
it is difficult to be rational when faced with concerted and collusional attacks IMO , some of them torrid and personal by nature , sometimes its easy to slip into fight back mode
If you recognise truth in this post then its your option to change things , if you chose not to , then the credibility of this forum is shredded and will remain so
thanks
Ricky
Corm , no reply from you as yet …still Pete continues to troll , except I am not biting
what a nasty place this forum has become …..
I ask for Pompete to be banned please , and if not can you explain why he can troll and not be banned
thanks
Ricky
Rick-stir, if The Boss or Matron choose to ban me – then so be it – I’ve certainly given Matron reason to do so in the past
and makes no difference to me.But, the current whips rules still are not going to change
Rick-stir, if The Boss or Matron choose to ban me – then so be it – I’ve certainly given Matron reason to do so in the past
and makes no difference to me!Pete, Since i joined the forum 3 years ago of all what i would describe as regular contributors,there are only 2 on here that should have been banned,
Armchair Jockey
for being a devious little B*stard and that character who called himself
Mr Wilson
,he threatened to ‘Smash my face in’,can you believe anyone on here would want to do that?
What i cant understand though is why when i describe what a REAL racing fan is,(One who supports the nescessary action required to encourage a horse to win a race with a whip) and those who call themselves racing fans but get squeamish at the above said description.REAL racing fans are positive,passionate characters who are prepared to risk their hard earned cash in return for a hard earned victory at times,thats REAL Horseracing,not 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, Oh S*it how many times can i hit them,i’m sure i did 3 on the first lap or was it 4….S*it here comes another fence pay attention Crap! What i cant understand though is why when i describe what a REAL racing fan is,(One who supports the nescessary action required to encourage a horse to win a race with a whip) and those who call themselves racing fans but get squeamish at the above said description.REAL racing fans are positive,passionate characters who are prepared to risk their hard earned cash in return for a hard earned victory at times,thats REAL Horseracing,not 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, Oh S*it how m any times can i hit them,i’m sure i did 3 on the first lap or was it 4….S*it here comes another fence pay attention Crap!
At the risk of being accused of being a stooge
Kingy are you not making a presumption that your definition of a REAL racing fan is the correct and only definition?
I can see where you are coming from but attitudes change over time, what was acceptable 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 years ago may not be acceptable now.
It happens in society and it happens in racing.
Now not all change is perceived to be good but change, thankfully, happens.
I’m old enough to remember when drinking and driving was socially acceptable and the outcry when the breathalyser was first introduced with drivers flagrantly breaking the rules but nobody backed down on the rules – now it is, in most circles, highly unacceptable to drink and drive.
I have no doubt that if the current whip rules remain in place as they are (apart from some minor tinkering with the count in NH races) that in a few years people will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about.
I would put it to you that REAL racing fans are happy to embrace change and not remain in a stagnant position.
Taking your argument to its logical conclusion REAL racing fans would be happy for spurs still to be used, for there to be no interference rules, for racecourse rails to be made of wood and concrete – how far would you like to go back so that racing takes place in its purest form?
One interesting question arising from your definition – are those who follow racing and who have no interest in betting not REAL racing fans?
PS – I’m not trying to pick a fight – just give a contrary viewpoint.
At the risk of being accused of being a stooge
Kingy are you not making a presumption that your definition of a REAL racing fan is the correct and only definition?
I can see where you are coming from but attitudes change over time, what was acceptable 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 years ago may not be acceptable now.
It happens in society and it happens in racing.
Now not all change is perceived to be good but change, thankfully, happens.I’m old enough to remember when drinking and driving was socially acceptable and the outcry when the breathalyser was first introduced with drivers flagrantly breaking the rules but nobody backed down on the rules – now it is, in most circles, highly unacceptable to drink and drive.
I have no doubt that if the current whip rules remain in place as they are (apart from some minor tinkering with the count in NH races) that in a few years people will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about.
I would put it to you that REAL racing fans are happy to embrace change and not remain in a stagnant position.Taking your argument to its logical conclusion REAL racing fans would be happy for spurs still to be used, for there to be no interference rules, for racecourse rails to be made of wood and concrete – how far would you like to go back so that racing takes place in its purest form?
One interesting question arising from your definition – are those who follow racing and who have no interest in betting not REAL racing fans?PS – I’m not trying to pick a fight – just give a contrary viewpoint.
Eloquently put as usual Paul.
Kingfisher
The definition i am making Paul is that the REAL racing Fan has lived with the whip and its implications for centuries,horses survived a proper whip from the past and they will certainly survive the latest friendlier edition.
In your opinion!
Racing has been in its purest form for the past 100 yrs Paul,Horse,Jockey,Trainer,Whip,all together trying to win !
Which pre-supposes that the whip is necessary to whip. Now the rules have changed a bit, but I can’t ever recall a rule which said that jockeys ahve to use the whip!
I understand your view and I can understand why it is put forcefully. However, what I can’t understand is how you cannot entertain the possibility that someone who disagrees with you is a ‘REAL racing fan’.
I understand the reason why the whip rules were brought in. I’m not happy in the way it’s been administered and I don’t think either the BHA or PJA come out with an awful credit over the whole business.
If you don’t think I’m a ‘REAL racing fan’ then I suggest you join me paddock side on a freeze your wotsits off day like Musselburgh yesterday. Believe me I live and breathe the sport.
It really does amuse me when certain parties here refer to Mr Cormack’s henchmen. It really has shades of the bogeyman!
Rob
I ask for Pompete to be banned please , and if not can you explain why he can troll and not be banned
thanks
RickyAnd I wish you’d,
stop whispering.
Don’t flatter yourself,
nobody’s listening.Still it makes me nervous,
those things you say.You’d may as well,
shout it from the roof,
scream it from your lungs,
and spit it from your mouth.It could fall on deaf ears,
to indulge your fears.There’s a spy in the sky,
there’s a noise on the wire.
There’s a tap on the line,
And for every paranoid’s desire…There’s always someone lookin’ at ya.
Someones Looking at you lyrics Boomtown Rats.
Stop being paranoid Ricky
Nobody’s listening.
Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-naa.
Value Is EverythingOne interesting question arising from your definition – are those who follow racing and who have no interest in betting not REAL racing fans?
Apart from his seasonal début where (in hidndsight a stupid decision) I laid him, I have not had a bet in any of Frankel’s races- yet I have thoroughly enjoyed and loved every single run of his.
I go racing three or four days a week yet I only have one or two bets a month – I still enjoy most of the racing I attend and the bad stuff would not be improved by anything.
) but with just six bans handed out -FACT- to Professional Flat & Jumps Jocks last month it ain’t gonna happen…..Rick-stirs Great White Hope knows this…… 
What i cant understand though is why when i describe what a REAL racing fan is,(One who supports the nescessary action required to encourage a horse to win a race with a whip) and those who call themselves racing fans but get squeamish at the above said description.REAL racing fans are positive,passionate characters who are prepared to risk their hard earned cash in return for a hard earned victory at times,thats REAL Horseracing,not 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, Oh S*it how many times can i hit them,i’m sure i did 3 on the first lap or was it 4….S*it here comes another fence pay attention Crap! 
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