- This topic has 263 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Not wonderful
She seemed to close the gap then roll around and drift to the left before staying on again
Marie’s Diamond won on a decent day for Hannon but is in no way a world beaterGaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
I thought Just Wonderful had one more chance to prove herself but it wasn’t to be. They don’t look a great bunch for O’Brien this season and I wonder if this cloning of previous winning formula is proving lazy, high attrition, low strike rate operation of a breeding empire.
If a person had the money and resources Coolmore has at their disposal, they wouldn’t need to be the brains of Britain to go back to a well trodden path and have another look down the well.
I feel some of the Coolmore horses are campaigned poorly and impatiently. Shogun is a horse who was flogged to death out of his depth time and time again. The maiden he DID win is still the worst maiden I have seen in my life.
This season Scat Daddy colt Mount Tabora came to the racetrack with money behind him on debut but was disappointing in 5th place. He has now run three times in three weeks and is still a maiden. Are they going to run him every week in weaker and weaker maidens to try to get a win out of him?
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
I would tend to disagree with the general feeling in here over Just Wonderful. One more chance to prove herself today? I presume you are meaning to prove herself the second coming?
She’s a 2yo and today she ran a promising enough race, without ever being asked any serious questions…Was it the best 2yo race of the year, no, but perhaps 6f and 6.5f isn’t what she wants already in her career. Her sister Bracelet started her winning over 7f + her mother only started racing at 1mile.
I wouldn’t give up on her at all, and i will look forward to her being priced a bit bigger in future.
I feel some of the Coolmore horses are campaigned poorly and impatiently. Shogun is a horse who was flogged to death out of his depth time and time again. The maiden he DID win is still the worst maiden I have seen in my life.
Steve, this isn’t Mark Johnston we are talking about….O’Brien attempts to get the horses to win at the highest possible level, that’s what his owners want him to do, not win run of the mill races. You are questioning a trainer that just won the most G1s in history last year.
On to my the horse to take out of the race, Viadera- i reckon she’s got tonnes of ability. Her maiden win she was completely clueless, and today she’s been caught napping as well, however, she will learn a lot and i do think she’s a good’n. That’s Marie’s Diamond’s 6th go today in typical Johnston fashion, and i know the horses i would be taking out of the race going forward…..
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!I’m just a little disappointed that she hasn’t really made any real progress from her debut Jack, O’Brien’s tend to improve from debut but she seems to have stalled as such. Still like you say early days and she could get better with maturity, experience, step up in trip etc but I was just expecting a bit more after that eye catching debut
Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
I prefer to ditch a horse who has failed a couple of times. Based on 40 years plus of observation it has proven to be the “right” thing for me financially over that period. There is always that chance a horse might bounce back but in my experience it doesn’t happen often and, as I have said, it has proven time and again to be the correct choice for me and if others refuse to take the advise and go their own way, then good luck.
It doesn’t matter to me what owners want to do with their horses. If they wish to vainly try to get a good quality win out of a moderate horse then that is their prerogative as the owner. I think I am well within my rights to criticise bad placing and not giving a horse the chance to compete in a class appropriate to it’s level of ability.
In Shogun’s case he was tried too high time and again and never added to his (awful) maiden win. He was never given time to find any sort of consistency at a lower level and gain confidence to progress. He become used to being way out of his depth and to add insult to injury he was gelded anyway, meaning his black type meant nothing anyway.
It seems you cannot criticise some parties involved in horse racing before someone has to challenge you about it.
I stand by my comments and I feel some refreshing criticism is better than the continual fawning that goes on in print and via sycophantic talk on TV. Some of these presenters must be washing their mouths out with super strength detergent to get the taste of Doo-doo off their tongues after the cavity cleansing they are doing during interviews.
I don’t think the Ballydoyle outfit have a great looking team this year so far and time will tell if I am correct or not. Like September last season, the forum was divided on how she would do this season and some kept the faith while others bailed out. Nobody knows until the day of reckoning and I feel it’s worth respecting ALL opinions until it’s been proven one way or the other.
For me, there is no need to be taking offence, particularly on behalf of someone else, or God forbid on behalf of a horse who has neither read nor understood the offending comment.
Regarding Viadera, I though she made an excellent debut, coming through late to win it. My pick from the race for the future was runner up U S S Michigan however. He is a big, raw frame of a horse and I felt he had tons of scope. The other factor is that I don’t think Ger Lyons has the same record of bringing young horses forward. He has had plenty promising sorts who never develop into the 3YO’s you might expect them to be capable of being.
Just Wonderful looked very promising on debut but while Aidan said she was green in the Albany, that does not explain a 14th place and an RPR of 63. She has run better this time but now rated 93 after a debut of 85, you have to assume that the 8 lbs progression is modest and very disappointing compared to the progress some of the yard’s fillies make, even from runs 1 to 2 and she has a good bit to prove for me now and I will be avoiding her myself. She is also by Dansili, rather than the proven sire of improvers in Galileo.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Just Wonderful may have been over-rated for her debut performance. She may or may not improve in to a good two year old filly. But two year olds do progress at varying rates, they’re not all fast improvers – just look at the slow learning US Navy Flag.
I’d agree that with some horses Team Coolmore do seem to over-try them. Shogun proved not up to Group 1 class, but take those runs in the top tier out and he’d been pretty consistent. Although never winning in Group 2 and Group 3 company he was never out of the first four in five attempts… They may have come to the conclusion that once a horse is placed in Group company there seems little point in going for anything else. Alternatively, the horse raced with a high head carriage and possibly temperamental – could he have been difficult to win with? ie Dropping in grade may not have resulted in a win – keeping to Group Company enables them to win more prize money. Neither did going for the more difficult Group 1’s do Shogun any harm in the long run. Producing his best Timeform Performance Rating three times in his career; two of which came on his last couple of starts for Aidan O’Brien (after that run of Group 1 failures.
True, Mount Tabora has been a beaten favourite on all three starts, but never at odds-on. So has never been thought of as the probable winner beforehand. Each time has seemingly been a better quality race too. So although beaten in all three, his form has actually been progressive. Indeed, many winners do not show as much improvement in three starts.
Value Is EverythingIt seems you cannot criticise some parties involved in horse racing before someone has to challenge you about it.
Nothing saying you can’t criticise any party, but to take offence at someone challenging you on a forum, is quite frankly bizarre. Forums are there for discussion and when a person broadcasts an opinion, a person is allowed to give their take as well.
It doesn’t matter to me what owners want to do with their horses. If they wish to vainly try to get a good quality win out of a moderate horse then that is their prerogative as the owner. I think I am well within my rights to criticise bad placing and not giving a horse the chance to compete in a class appropriate to it’s level of ability.
It ddoes matter what the owners want to do. You are criticising a trainer who trains for an owner who is very involved in the placing, yet you are criticising the trainer’s placing.
Agree their team does not look as strong this year especially in the older ages. The 2yos can turn good late on so i will reserve judgement on the younger team.
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!Jack, I think it must say somewhere in theracingforum rules that although this is a discussion forum, everyone must agree with whatever Steve says… And that Steve can make his own rules up as he goes along.
Value Is EverythingI can’t agree with Mount Tabora’s progress being decent.
He has gone 80, 84, 88 on runs 1-2-3 on the Racing Post Ratings. At that rate he’ll make a great 6YO
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Steve, this isn’t Mark Johnston we are talking about….O’Brien attempts to get the horses to win at the highest possible level, that’s what his owners want him to do, not win run of the mill races. You are questioning a trainer that just won the most G1s in history last year.
If Aidan lets the owners do the selecting of targets, then he can’t take much of the credit in garnering all the group 1 races. If he has no input on where the horses go then he’s just getting horses fit to race where others tell him.
If I were in his position I would need to be part of the whole process and getting due credit for the role I played. Aidan surely has some ego driving him?
You are entitled to your opinion of course Jack but the tone you come across in is that I cannot criticise rich people who can afford to buy the best horses and that I can’t criticise Aidan because he had a record breaking year. That is suggesting that my input has no merit, so have a think about it from my viewpoint. Your post had an aggressive and angry tone to it at worst, unfriendly and condemning at best.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Mount Tabora has gone up 19 lbs on Timeform Performance ratings.
Value Is EverythingThe Scat Daddy progeny usually have a short career. Early days but the best ones tend to hit the ground running from day 1 at a high level, I wouldn’t be confident that Mount Tabora will amount to much.
Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
Eh?
What “tone”, Steve?
Am amazed you can see any of that in Jack’s posts.
It’s surely a reasonable comment to point out “Aidan’s record” when someone’s defending him… And there’s nothing in Jack’s comments about “rich people”, nothing to say you “can’t criticise” Aidan and certainly nothing “aggressive, angry, unfriendly or condemning”. You might like to take another look at his post again and consider what you’ve accused Jack of.
For your own peace of mind, why not take TRFers comments as being in the best possible “tone”, rather than the worst?Value Is EverythingWhat I took to be Jack’s point (please say if I’ve got it wrong, Jack) is that: If Aidan’s comments before and after races are anything to go by – he always consults “the lads” before making a joint decision on targets. ie It’s not that Aidan has “no input”, indeed probably has a lot of input, but targets are far from his decision alone.
Aidan never does “take much credit in garnering all those group 1 races”, it’s always a team effort. May be that’s false modesty, hard to tell.
Value Is Everything
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.