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I’m sure Peter Chapple-Hyam is on record as saying that Winker Watson misses the 2,000 gns.
Sorry my mistake, just makes the short list even shorter, so don’t have to spread my bets around so much. Looking at The Craven again, I’m not so sure about Ravens Pass either now, it’s never good when a horse gets beaten by one he’s already passed to win his race.
I’ve always been sweet on Jupiter Pulvius, just because he didn’t run in the top 2 year old races doesn’t mean he’s not top class, just that they’ve taken there time with him. His profile is similar to Footstepsinthesand and wouldn’t be the 1st Ballydoyle classic winner to arrive on the scene late.
He`ll need to be better, a lot better than Footstepsinthestand to win this renewal.
I’m sure Peter Chapple-Hyam is on record as saying that Winker Watson misses the 2,000 gns.
Sorry my mistake, just makes the short list even shorter, so don’t have to spread my bets around so much. Looking at The Craven again, I’m not so sure about Ravens Pass either now, it’s never good when a horse gets beaten by one he’s already passed to win his race.
Normally I would agree with you but I honestly think he blew up rather than being outstayed……he came there to win his race and for a few strides I thought how far……..then he just seemed to run out of gas…..I think he stays and on guineas day ground being ok he will leave everything in his wake…………I thought New Approach was flattered last season when he beat Ravens and refuse to take that form on face value……….I think we’ll see a totally different RP next time out who will beat everything for toe……you guys shold be worryin about who will finish second…….the we can do the forecast
The more I look at the race the more I like Ibn Khaldun, but I just don’t accept Godolphin’s assertions that a winter in Dubai is of any benefit when horses are only shipped back a week or two before they’re due to run. And the same is true as the regard the chances of Fast Company, who was the horse I was most looking forward to seeing this season (sadly it looks as though he’ll be the odd one out in not being sent to Newmarket, having presumably been ruined after being bought out of Brian Meehan’s yard).
With that in mind I’m far more interested in the likes of Il Warrd at around 40/1. I don’t think he’ll run on fast ground, but if it’s anything close to good then he could surprise. He’s entered in the Dante, so presumably stays well enough to cope with a strong pace, and won very impressively on his reappearance when destroying Gaspar Van Wittel (beaten 7l by Raven’s Pass last year) at Kempton. With the Tregoning horses not really setting the world alight at present his victory looks all the better, and the winning time wasn’t bad either.
LGR, just to cheer you up it was announced yesterday that Il Warrd has been transferred to godolphin and is likely to go to the french guineas.
Harsh on Tregonning and the horse!!
Is there no level they won’t sink to in order to prove successful?
It mystifies me why so many trainers appear to ‘put up’ with the antics of Sheikh Mohammed, Godolphin and their associates, as they only ever seem to be used as a means of preparing a high class juvenile for a mediocre classic season under the care of Saeed Bin Suroor.
David Loder is the only person, that I can recall, who spoke out about it when he was unfortunate enough to lose Bull Run (won his two races as a juvenile by a combined 24l, only to spend 30 months off the track before being mullered on his one subsequent start).
Why do the likes of Mark Johnston, Michael Jarvis and Marcus Tregoning (I don’t know if Fast Company was Arab-owned when with Brian Meehan) stand for it?
Why do the likes of Mark Johnston, Michael Jarvis and Marcus Tregoning (I don’t know if Fast Company was Arab-owned when with Brian Meehan) stand for it?
Filthy lucre….?
David Loder is the only person, that I can recall, who spoke out about it when he was unfortunate enough to lose Bull Run (won his two races as a juvenile by a combined 24l, only to spend 30 months off the track before being mullered on his one subsequent start).
Bull Run’s wins came at 3, the second in the Epsom Blue Riband / Derby trial.
:evil:
Is there no level they won’t sink to in order to prove successful?
It mystifies me why so many trainers appear to ‘put up’ with the antics of Sheikh Mohammed, Godolphin and their associates, as they only ever seem to be used as a means of preparing a high class juvenile for a mediocre classic season under the care of Saeed Bin Suroor.
David Loder is the only person, that I can recall, who spoke out about it when he was unfortunate enough to lose Bull Run (won his two races as a juvenile by a combined 24l, only to spend 30 months off the track before being mullered on his one subsequent start).
Why do the likes of Mark Johnston, Michael Jarvis and Marcus Tregoning (I don’t know if Fast Company was Arab-owned when with Brian Meehan) stand for it?
This is why I absoluteley detest the Godolphin operation this just isn’t right.
If they want success buy yearlings or breed their own but buying up horse after horse that has shown a lot of early promise is ruining the sport, maybe not the business but definitely the sport.
Might as well do away with all other owners and trainers and rename the sport Godolphin racing and let the egomanics swell their heads yet further by having no competition at all.
Its a good job the organisation is useless at handing horses because it stops complete domination.
Still it gives C4 even more reason to arse lick especially as Sheikh Mohammed has ventured out into sponsoring televised racing. We’ll have racecourses remamed Godolphin related names before long now.
I really wish they’d either play the game properly or get out of it altogether.
I always thought that loder trained most of his juveniles for godolphin anyway. It can be a bit frustrating seeing them buying up horses from the smaller yards, because they are terrible at training IMO.
Their acquisition of Fast Company is particularly annoying at present when you watch how many Danehill Dancers are winning at present on the ground we are having and then look to see that the best danehill dancer colt in training is out in dubai (on gd-fm more than likely) reportedly not doing too much.
And whatever happened to shiekh Mohammed not buying coolmore stock, fast company (danehill dancer), authorized (montjeu), teofilo (galileo), new approach (galileo) teofilos dam speirbhean (danehill), Dandy Man (Mozart) he’s certainly doing enough to advertise them(obviously not danehill).
It must be a pain in the backside coming up with a special one only to see it going to them to do nothing. Am somewhat doubtful as to what will happen with McCartney aswell as he just reminds me (on breeding and juvenile form) of Winged Cupid that they ruined in 06. If this cold weather holds out for another while it will be interesting to see how their horses do in May and June arriving from dubai to freeze their nuts off here.
I am not totally against Godolphin, because they provide so many false favorites for us but it does annoy me when they buy up one Ive been following and ruin it, and even worse if they work it to death.
I actually feel that the authorities need to get their act in order. Maybe its about time a law was introduced to stop horses being "poached". You don’t see Prince Khalid do it nor the other major owners.
Its not as if its a one off Godolphin are always doing it and it is totally against the nature of competitive sport. They clearly want to be the sport, well I’m sorry but the sport is far bigger than Godolphin and I do not want to see Godolphin monopolising big races because they’ve waved their checkbook and bought horse after horse after horse off someone else. What satisfaction they can get from it I don’t know, in their deluded world I suppose they see it as their success – well it isn’t.
Fine, by all means monopolise big races if you’ve bred the horses you’re winning with or you purchased them before they’ve seen a racecourse, no problem with that at all but their current policy makes my blood boil.
After what we have seen in the trials, IMO, the 2000 Guineas looks to me at this moment to be between Twice Over (if he goes) and Ibn Khaldun, (if coming back to a chilly England doesn’t cause any problems).
Maybe Fast Company could do well even if he has shown little at home, who knows?
Cant see how anyone can have guineas picked out at present, theres about three different horses all suited to different conditions who are potentially top class on those conditions.
Ibn Khaldun should be suited to firmer conditions but he’s a racing post trophy winner, who is working well in dubai, where he will come back from very late in the day, dubawi arguably should have won the 2005 guineas but was brought back too late, and wasnt at his best. Dubawi IMO had better form than Ibn Khaldun comes here with and against much lesser opposition.
Looking at the godolpjhin challenge at newmarket for the last two years I can understand why they are more confident about Ibn Khaldun but he has 4 negatives:
A) His form is Racing Post trophy form, which isnt great guineas form even in a weak year, and the form of that race has been made to look poor by pretty much every horse to have run since.
B) He is with Godolphin, who last won a classic with rule of law in the 2004 leger, cant remember the last one before that.
C) He needs to improve to win it against a few who look top drawer.
D) His prep will be ineterupted by travelling and settling in, acclimitising etc.which the rest wont have to overcome. Fast Company aside.Ravens Pass is going to Newmarket with a trial rating of 122 on ground that didnt suit, from race conditions that didnt suits. All this talk that he wont stay is rubbish, at newmarket on gd-fm he could be up towards a 130 performance which should probably win the guineas. He would surely have to be the selection on Gd-Fm conditions.
On any sort of Cut it would have to be New Approach or Fast Company, probably fast company for an e/w. It has been reported that he hasnt been going as well for godolphin in dubai but perhaps the return to ground that is more in his favour might turn him around. With both NA and FC however you have to take their fitness and well being etc with a big pinch of salt.
I am hoping for Gd-Fm because on those conditions we have a near certainty in Ravens Pass, he’s fit and well and bang in form and if he gets the ground in his favour then I reckon he’ll be unstoppable. In a testing race on testing conditions that he didnt want, where the field were strung out all over the place (a fair sign that the race was testing), he was only just outstayed by one more suited to those conditions. I think anyone who thinks he wont stay needs to put that performance into perspective.
I tend to agree with you Bulwark.
I was unconvinced by Raven’s Pass after the Dewhurst but in hindsight I think they made too much use of him that day. He’s a horse with a blistering turn of foot those type of horses are much better being held up as Raven’s Pass was in the Craven. He ran a better race in the Craven than he did in the Dewhurst I think that was down to the way he was ridden.
He does stay I’ve no doubt about that he just got outstayed a fraction in the Craven to be fair by a very good horse who is my idea of a Derby winner. Both horses will come on physically for that run and Raven’s Pass will stay every inch next time.
I wouldn’t worry about the ground but the faster it gets the better it may suit Raven’s Pass. He’s shown enough 90% fit on good to soft ground to dispel any doubts for me regarding both the trip and the ground unless its very soft.
I think this could be one of the best Guineas of modern times with Raven’s Pass and New Approach possibly capable of a 130 performace. I think its between the two. Twice Over I’m convinced will take the Dante – Derby route and in hindsight I think I over-rated Ibn Khaldun’s Racing Post Trophy win, the form has not been franked since and Racing post Trophy winners don’t win the Guineas anyway.
From being against Raven’s Pass after the Dewhurst he’s forced me to do a full turn, its now either him or New Approach for me, Raven’s Pass I think just getting the nod.
Would a good to firm going inconvience Twice Over or Ibn Khaldun ?
I’m far from being an expert in these matters. I do see that both of their sires won races on good to firm going. They are both well bred colts, I would have thought they would both be OK on good to firm.I liked what I saw when watching Twice Over beat Ravens Pass after being headed last Thursday. Glad I was there to see it. What a battle.
Didn’t the same thing happen in the Dewhurst, Ravens Pass ahead going into the dip and then beaten ?
I hope Prince Khalid sends Twice Over to the Guineas, maybe he will after the way Confront performed at Newbury.
Good to firm shouldnt inconvenience either Twice Over or Ibn Khaldun. Twive Over, Ibn Khaldun, Fast Company, New Approach and Ravens Pass will all stay a mile on Gd Fm but the question is which one will be going fastest in the last furlong and neither Twice Over or Ibn Khaldun has IMO shown that sort of speed yet, the one that has is Ravens Pass.
Im just stating what I strongly believe but if you fancy Twice Over and Ibn Khaldun then I’ll not try to talk you out of a bet, because none of us know for certain what will happen on the day.
But Raven’s Pass has only shown speed in the last furlong of a seven furlong race, Bulwark, and it was in the closing stages of the race over a mile in which he was outstayed by Twice Over.
On good ground (or even fast ground), with a more generous pace, there is no reason at all why the form should be reversed. The only chance he’ll have of doing that is if Jimmy Fortune rides him in a similar way to how Kevin Darley ride Attraction; on the pace throughout and asked to quicken further from home than may be ideal.
But even then he’s going to struggle, unless Gosden left a hell of a lot to work with.
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